It was a genuine question believe it or not. And “yes” would have been sufficient.
You cross posted an anti-Ukraine propaganda piece from lemmygrad into a pro-Ukraine group. Of course you are going to get banned. It is pretty disingenuous of you to act like it’s not your fault.
It’s difficult to discuss PTB here, because after a quick glance at the community in question, you’ll easily find that it’s not a place for discussing Ukrainian affairs, but simply a propaganda cesspool dedicated to parroting certain talking points. Therefore, I have no idea why you expected a different outcome.
On the other hand, it’s quite interesting to note that, while it’s obvious to everyone that you don’t need to have any sympathy for Maduro to condemn Trump’s actions, any opposition to Putin’s actions is magically inseparable from efforts to whitewash nazi crap.
You posted a discussion to the Ukraine community about an article from a right-wing newspaper making a spurious claim that Ukrainians are doing Nazi salutes, and you’re surprised you were banned? The same newspaper that was agreed to publish pro-Nazi content during the war.
Your question assumed the article was telling the truth. In reality, it’s propaganda, and you were spreading it as fact. There are two possibilities for why you did this, and neither are flattering.
I’m tired of playing the “just a useful idiot or sealion” game
Fortunately, there usually seems to be a surplus of useless idiots.
According to Wikipedia, de Telegraaf is the largest Dutch morning newspaper, and
not specifies if it has a political biashas a conservative and populist bias and based in some articles, it’s far-right and fascist “friendly”. Also, it’s not a spurious claim, it’s based in the interview of a mercenary that was in the Ukrainian Army.What is your source that is a spurious claim?
Edit: Clarify the bias (see answers)
From the wikipedia article you linked:
During World War II, the Telegraaf companies published pro-Nazi German papers, which led to a thirty-year ban on publishing after the war. The prohibition was lifted in 1949 and De Telegraaf flourished anew to become the biggest newspaper in the Netherlands. … The paper targets a broad audience, mostly in a conservative and populist style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Telegraaf
Two years later, on 12 September 1902, Holdert acquired the daily newspaper De Telegraaf and its subsidiary De Courant … At the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939, Holdert, by then a long-time resident of Paris, happened to be in Amsterdam for a shareholders’ meeting. Even though he the opportunity to leave, having transferred almost all of De Telegraaf’s liquid assets to the US, he decided to stay, taking up residence in the Hotel American on Leidseplein. Under Holdert’s strict directives, his newspapers adopted a strong anti-German stance at the start of the World War II, but during the German occupation from 1940 to 1945, he sought to prevent his newspapers from falling completely under German and NSB control by allowing the publication of German and pro-German periodicals. He also agreed to support the NSB financially, as long as Holdert’s company did not fall into German hands. … He was succeeded by his son Henri Holdert, who permitted the Germans to place reports in the newspaper, which cost De Telegraaf dearly after the War. On 7 April 1948 the tribunal assumed that Holdert “had not deliberately promoted Nazi propaganda, but that he had used improper means to save his company”, so it declared 2 million guilders of Holdert’s fortune, then estimated at 17.
NSB was a Dutch Nazi party. A party that the founder of the Telegraaf supported financially.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hak_Holdert
In review, De Telegraph covers the Forum for Democracy (FvD) (Dutch far-right party) leader Thierry Baudet and other figureheads favorably. … When reporting world news, De Telegraaf utilizes emotionally loaded language in their headlines, such as “Corbyn makes an excuse to Labor voters.” This story does not provide hyperlinks to outside sources. They also use loaded emotional headlines when covering immigration: “8.5 percent of those suspected of an offense were immigrants”; however, there isn’t a hyperlinked source to support this claim. … Articles about USA politics sometimes use a favorable tone for former President Trump, such as: “Donald Trump: “Well come on, impeach me!”. … In general, news reporting is poorly sourced with a strong right-leaning bias.
My fault, I should have specified it has conservative and populist bias, and thanks for the other links. I don’t think that his editorial policy 90 years ago must be seen as the current policy but, as you has shown, it seems to be far-right and fascist “friendly”. I will edit my post to correct it.
I'm going a lot off-topic here:
I don’t think that even it has a fascists bias, we should prima faze reject its content. We should be specially critical: It’s a (wo)man-made story? What questions have been done? What narrative it’s try to push? …
The only thing that I think that we could agree is that in the article the fascist question is in various points of the article, but it not seems to be the more important points that the journalist wants to communicate (it’s not in the firsts paragraphs), but the tittle gives it a special importance.
I’m not sure what is the position of each of the Europeans fascisms about the Ukraine war, then I cannot Annalise it in this case. As a curiosity: During one or two years I was infiltrated in a telegram group of a fascist Spanish organization, that organization broke up two years ago. The most important flamewars there that I read there, just before the broke up, were “Duginist”[1] fascist vs. “Atlanticist”[2] fascist related to the Russian-Ukrainian war.
Just to clarify: I was infiltrated for my antifascist militance. ACAB.
For Aleksandr Dugin fascist ideology. ↩︎
For pro State-Unitarians and pro NATO fascists. ↩︎
Wikipedia has multiple versions in different languages, and those ones DO specify that the newspaper is right-wing. But even without that, they’re the only paper in the Netherlands that printed Nazi propaganda. Of course they have political bias.
So when they demonise the victims of an authoritarian regime with their source being a single person’s claims, I have more reason to doubt them than to believe them.
No, not surprised no and I was expecting the hate for sure. But we should be talking about fascism in every country, I love talking about fascism of mine for sure.
I honestly didn’t know the history of this specific newspaper (that’s on me) but you can find many other media discussing “the nazi problem” in the past and it’s not really a secret.
I love talking about fascism of mine for sure.
Please could you link to posts or comments you have made about fascism in your country and in Russia?
Believe it or not, I have a real actual life outside the internet. Is checking the transcript of my personal interactions with people a good metric to understand geopolitics?
You can say you don’t like me, it’s allowed bro, nobody will get mad.
I’d love to see their post in a community about Russia about the atrocities of Wagner and Rusich, as well as Wagner’s co-founder being one of Putin’s closest allies for many years.
Many of the comments are trying to appraise whether Ukraine authentically has something akin to a “Nazi problem”.
The most basic observations are that Ukraine has Nazis and that all Nazis are a problem. The same is true of other nations.
Every source either will seek to exaggerate or to minimize the severity and relevance of the problem. Simply, even by someone of greatest possible moral purity, there is no objective or neutral means to appraise the matter.
A pro-Ukraine community naturally will take every measure to repel content appearing to vindicate Russian nationalism.
I assume the title is correct, but could you link to the original De Telegraaf article? Thanks.
Anyway, fascism is never ok, but Ukraine having a huge nazi problem is Russian propaganda. IRC fascists gained 2% in the last election. Azov has neo-nazi roots, that’s not ok, but has in large part been denazified. Many of the original members are dead.
The far right in Ukraine is far smaller than in neighbouring countries, including Russia. For example, here’s a few pictures of a Russian nationalist march:
Meanwhile Russia has been supporting the far-right across Europe and in the US. For example:
But this isn’t just real-politik or pragmatism. For example, Putin had Ivan Ilyin reburied in Russia. He has often quoted him and admires him. Ivan Ilyin was a self-avowed fascist, openly admired Mussolini and Hitler, and a virulent anti-communist. Russia is run by an elite who to be generous deeply admire fascism, co-operate with fascists, and who in all likelihood are fascists.
Another example, Dmitry Utkin, the co-founder of the Wagner group. Note the tattoos.
For example, here’s a few pictures of a Russian nationalist march:
Not discussing all other points of the comment, but quick Google search is enough to find out that these photos were taken on November 4, 2013. To better understand their significance as an argument, it’s worth adding that Viktor Yanukovych was the president of Ukraine on that day.
Ukraine having a huge nazi problem is Russian propaganda
For the first like 2 fucking years of the war the west literally could not publish a pic of Ukrainian soldiers without fascist iconography but go off you fucking nerd
This shit still going on, I remember an article from like two weeks ago with some Nazi fuck being praised by the West
The low number of openly fascist parliamentarians in Ukraine is often explained by the crypto-fascist stances of other political parties: glorification of past fascists, racism, ultranationalism, xenophobia…
And yes, Russia has a fascist problem, like most other European countries, and, as in Ukraine, the limited presence of fascists in parliament can be explained in the same way.
The low number of openly fascist parliamentarians in Ukraine is often explained by the crypto-fascist stances of other political parties: glorification of past fascists, racism, ultranationalism, xenophobia…
And Lavrov says Zelensky is a pure Nazi, despite the former being a Jew. Should we believe him?
Or should we take Russian narratives about Ukraine being full of Nazis with a pinch of salt?
There were plenty of Jewish Nazis collaborators, just as there were Black people that helped slave owners, colonized subjects who worked for their colonizers, women who work for misogynists. Zelensky knows if he doesn’t work with the Nazis they will kill him and he likes his head on his shoulders.
Arent there multiple people in Zelensky’s cabinet who are Jewish?
Including Zelensky, yes.
It’s not (only) a Russian narrative, is a narrative shared by a lot of journalists specialized in fascism.
That depends on which journalists you follow.
I would argue that everything and everyone is doing propaganda, is it not more interesting to know where it comes from and why it says that rather then discard the whole thing?
And I agree that everywhere there is a rise in fascism (that’s why we should talk about it!) but where I don’t agree is supporting a country with explicit nazi symbology inside the military, especially if we want to regard them as “heroes” in the future. Supporting war is serious thing.
This topic should be very important to ukrainians too no?
The article you paints a much more nuanced picture:
De commandant die hem ontving, verzekerde hem dat dat allemaal verleden tijd was. ’Dit is niet het Azov van vroeger’, werd hem verteld. ’Azov is hervormd, gezuiverd, en opnieuw opgebouwd.’
Translation: the commander who welcomes him(Hendrik) says Azov is not what it used to be, has been reformed, purified, and rebuilt. He mentions seeing nazi symbols in an office though.
Een paar andere buitenlandse jongens waren ook weg, ze hadden teams gezien waar elke morgen de nazigroet werd gebracht.”
Translation: other foreign soldiers also wanted to leave, some had even seen teams where everyone did the Nazi salute in the morning. Ie. he didn’t actually see the Nazi salutes himself. which indicates is indeed less common than the title and you suggest.
„We willen voorkomen dat de oorlog doorslaat naar Europa. Als we daar stoppen, dan verslechteren onze eigen kansen.”
Closing words from soldier in question: we want to prevent the war spreading to Europe. Als we stop supporting Ukraine, our own chances worsen."
This topic should be very important to ukrainians too no?
Why is Russia being a fascist state not an important topic for you?
Why would we not want to stop a fascist state in Ukraine, before it continues into Europe, and continues to fund the far right globally?
Why are you parrotting Russian propaganda about Ukraine which suggests Ukraine has a larger fascist problem than it does?
These are rhetorical questions. No need to answer.
The OP frequents tankie communities where the likes of Stalin, Assad, and sometimes Putin are praised all the time. Whether deliberately or not, they fail to grasp the most basic concept of fascism or the adjacent totalitarianism, where the part “total” is crucial in understanding that it’s all about power before ideology. Someone like Putin may not raise his hand in the Hitler salute, but his track record of killings, human rights abuses and warmongering makes the occasional Nazi sympathizers in the Ukrainian army look like child’s play in comparison.
As you note earlier, far-right ideas are unpopular in Ukraine, and funnily enough, the same far-right groups and individuals, demonized by Russia and tankies who often cite the likes of Sputnik, actually have a solid track record of supporting pro-democracy causes like Euromaidan, if not defending Ukraine from Russian imperialism. On the latter, the regular people in Ukraine don’t care about the tattoos, patches, daily rituals or even the political ideas of someone who’s there to help them evacuate after long weeks of being shelled by Russia and living with no heat, electricity, or running water. Heroism is defined by actions, not by ideas.
Edit: Grammar
“Heroism is defined by actions, not ideals.” -You
Also before 2022:
If I posted 100 pictures from Kiev Pride, would this mean everyone in Ukraine is gay?
If I told you my grandma was 100 and smoked 2 packs a day, you wouldn’t believe smoking is healthy. If I posted 20 pictures of old grannies smoking, you still wouldn’t believe it.
There being an existing fascist problem in Ukraine before the war, doesn’t mean it’s a disproprtionate problem now. In fact, polling in the last Ukrainian election suggests it isn’t anywhere as large a problem as Russia propagandists would have you believe.
Fucking Tel Aviv has a pride parade so that is really saying little about a country being full of fascists or not…
Here’s Smotrich, the elected Israeli Finance minister:
Israel engages in pink washing, but the fact Smotrich is a minister says a lot, even if they haven’t banned pride (yet.)
Meanwhile in Ukraine:
The leader of Russian occupied Donetsk complimenting Ukrainian fascists, who received roughly 2% of the vote in the last elections. Ukrainian fascists are apparently more popular in Russian occupied Ukraine than in free Ukraine.
Meanwhile in Russia proper, the Pride march has been banned for years, people are regularly arrested for being gay, websites which stream movies like Brokeback Mountain are banned, the “international LGBT movement” whatever that is was labeled as a banned extremist organization, the police regularly raid gay bars, gay people are regularly murdered, and the country has become one of if not the most dangerous country to be gay in Europe. But apparently that’s not a country full of fascists.
But hey, maybe Ukraine is overrun with gay jewish Nazis.
the occasional Nazi sympathizers in the Ukrainian army look like child’s play in comparison [to Putin].
[…]
far-right ideas are unpopular in Ukraine
[…]
the regular people in Ukraine don’t care about […] the political ideas [of the fascists in their army]
If they don’t care, it should not be so unpopular, then.
I would describe it as “very concerning” rather than “nuanced”.
And I do believe the problem is bigger than many people are willing to admit. It’s worth discussing properly to me.
Here’s the US justification for the No vote.
Chair, today the United States expresses opposition to this resolution, a document most notable for its thinly veiled attempts to legitimize longstanding Russian disinformation narratives smearing neighboring nations under the cynical guise of halting Nazi glorification.
If Russia actually cared about fighting Nazi ideology then Aleksandr Dugin’s ideas wouldn’t be so popular in the Kremlin.
It may be heavy handed. But it is understandable. Ukraine has bigger fash to fry. And specific actors defend the bigger fash by constantly bringing up Azov. Should Ukraine reject the aid of our fascist government, and azov’s manpower. Just letting the Russian fascists roll over them? How is this a currently useful discussion?
Didn’t you know, critical support can only go towards Russia. They can tolerate homophobia, genocide, and nazism but draw the line at Ukrainians right to exist.
That’s a really weird point to make, because you are skipping so many steps.
- implies the ukraine forces are mostly fascists and, without them, they will get rolled over
- implies also that the government is unwilling or incapable of applying rules to oppose nazi symbology in its own military
- people are okay cheering some nazi as heroes
these are huge problems in my opinion no?
I barely mentioned Ukraine’s forces. Let alone said anything that could have implied that most of them were fascists. The one and problem segment I did mention, Azov, isn’t a major segment of their forces. Or representative. This is an absurd reach.
In a war, the enemy of your enemy isn’t your friend. Just useful. The Nazi sympathizers in Ukraine are a problem as they are everywhere. But they never bombed residential blocks regularly. Killing women and kidnapping children. That’s Russia.
You’re asking why Ukraine isn’t singularly focused on pulling out a millimeter sized sliver from their finger. When a 5 millimeter shard has pierced their thigh, and they’re bleeding out. The answer is obvious, and the question disingenuous.
What is the original source?
To start a morning i personally do no less then 30 nazi salutes while wermacht classics play on tv.
lmao, pls put /s tag, because some nazis actually are that crazy
i thought all the nazis moved to the u.s. … arent they running the country now??
The US is the spiritual home of Nazism. The centuries-long attempts to exterminate the Native Americans, slavery, and US isolationism & exceptionalism inspired Hitler. Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh were very useful as well in creating lots of pro-Nazi sentiment.
Everything the US learnt, they learnt from the English.
