I don’t give a fuck who was responsible for the millions of deaths, the fact of the matter is it’s very specific to one pervasive strain of government that keeps popping up, like a disease, and causing the same exact problem in the USSR, China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Syria, soon I fully expect to see it yet again in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Africa.
You shouldn’t be defending them, rather you should be blaming them for tainting and poisoning the words Socialism and Communism and preventing the actual ideology from entering mainstream discussions.
Iran is a much more ‘traditional’ clerical-fascist regime. In fact, they hate leftists with a passion that makes the tankies who bootlick them look downright deranged. Or self-destructive.
Syria,
Syria, luckily, has been freed from the Assadist boot at this point! If the new government remains reasonably democratic (not guaranteed, but I’m keeping cautiously optimistic) and they can stave off Israel trying to destabilize them for fucking funsies, they may have a future ahead of them.
Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Africa.
Afghanistan is downright feudal, honestly, in its power structures, while Pakistan is a military junta and effectively always has been. We (the US) unfortunately, had a… nonzero role in that in the way we empowered the Pakistani ISI and allowed it to play a ‘spookocracy’ role, like the intelligence services in Putin’s Russia.
Africa’s ML period is largely over, honestly. When the Soviets fell, most interest in ML projects in the continent fell as well. Africa remains divided and troubled, but largely not by ML-style systems.
The Iran–China 25-year Cooperation Program or Comprehensive Strategic Partnership between I.R. Iran, P.R. China, was signed in 2021. The two countries and their respective predecessors have the longest diplomatic relationship in human history, AFAIK. Iran funded and armed Hamas in Palestine, and China funded and armed Iran.
Syria under Assad was also allied to the Russian and Chinese circle of influence.
Afghanistan… you’re right that they have no true allies at this point, but given how the proxy wars have played out thus far I find it hard to believe they’re not somehow tied into it all. Just a conspiracy theory at this point.
African nations are allying economically and militarily with China as we speak, the most recent one was the Chinese Launchpad being built in Egypt and they’re talking about expanding that program to many other nations in Africa.
Wasn’t talking about allies, but the domestic systems they operate under. Realpolitik means that the two don’t always end up the same - the US has backed dictatorships, democracies, and even the occasional socialist regime, after all. China, likewise, will do the same - back any system as long as they benefit from it. They may generally prefer countries to adopt their system, but their hegemony is not married to that preference.
It also may seem minor, but different authoritarian systems are shit in different ways. ML systems share a great many features - largely due to being imposed wholesale by the Soviets - and their progress (or lack thereof) is like clockwork. Other authoritarian regimes wax and wane in very different ways.
The two countries and their respective predecessors have the longest diplomatic relationship in human history,
What a beautiful example of how quickly a Liberal becomes Fascist.
Iran
Iran isn’t Socialist. The Ba’ath Party in Syria are largely a product of US meddling in the middle east, a lot of which was done by - you guessed it - democratic Liberals coopted into helping the fascists perpetuating Capitalist greed!
You shouldn’t be defending them [Socialist Authoritarians], rather you should be blaming them for tainting and poisoning the words Socialism and Communism and preventing the actual ideology behind it from entering mainstream discussions.
Oh, I’m arguing wrong am I? Using too many facts.
Poor fool, you’ve assumed I’m a Socialist, merely because I have a grasp on history. Nope, I’m a modern progressive. But yeah keep pushing me left, you Liberal Fascists. Move to Hungry, go be buddies with Orban or Israel. Go hold the door open for right-populism some more. Let in as much Capitalist Fascism as people can stand. It’s what you do best.
The Ba’ath Party in Syria are largely a product of US meddling in the middle east, a lot of which was done by - you guessed it - democratic Liberals coopted into helping the fascists perpetuating Capitalist greed!
“Arab Nationalism and Arab Socialism was caused by the US” is a new one, I have to admit.
But yeah keep pushing me left, you Liberal Fascists.
… you’re literally already playing apologist for red fascist states with well-documented atrocities and genocides to their name.
I said the Ba’ath Party in modern Syria. But that shit was all founded post sykes pico anyways.
you’re literally already playing apologist for red fascist states with well-documented atrocities and genocides to their name.
Correct attribution of causes has NOTHING to do with apologia. Which is why I’ve also corrected attributed the genocides and atrocities Liberal, Neo-Liberal and Economic Liberal Philosophies caused and contributed to.
That’s not apoligia for them either. I’ll say it again in case you missed it: Correct attribution is NOT apologia. It’s quite correct to step away from things you disagree with, including when progressives step away from Liberals.
Do you… do you not know what Ba’athist parties stand for?
But that shit was all founded post sykes pico anyways.
… what the fuck does Sykes-Picot have to do with the US?
Correct attribution of causes has NOTHING to do with apologia.
So you admit, then, that attributing the genocides of the USSR and PRC, which included mass executions, ethnic cleansing, and targeted famines, to a little accident all caused by Lysenko was inaccurate?
I never denied famines or the gulag system, I specifically said the gulag system was a horrible system of political persecution.
If Gaza was suddenly powerful, youd see a horrible series of massacres against Israelis. After the french revolution you had a horrible series of executions and white terror.
Systems of Authoritarian oppression often occur after revolutions, during famines, or during times of instability. That’s human nature in all systems.
What Lysenko did to perpetuate famines (to maintain his position) was in no way small. Now you’re minimizing the undesired and unintended famines.
They were directed politically after the fact but neither China nor Russia wanted them. No government actively wants a famine… Yet you’ll happily attribute it to these two governments in particular.
Are there other national famines you incorrectly think were desired by governments/ideologies?
…and I’m not talking about artificial shortages such as in Ireland, Bengal, or the concentration camps of the boer war… You know, Colonial famines.
They were directed politically after the fact but neither China nor Russia wanted them. No government actively wants a famine… Yet you’ll happily attribute it to these two governments in particular.
Are there other national famines you incorrectly think were desired by governments/ideologies?
…and I’m not talking about artificial shortages such as in Ireland, or the concentration camps of the boerwar… You know, Colonial famines.
“No government actively wants a famine… except for those non-red fascist states!”
Sorry that you believe that colonialism cannot be performed by an imperialist state with a long history of colonialism, if it has a coat of red paint. We - or rather, you - are done here.
You are incorrect, the mass famines of the USSR and CCP were mostly caused by a single conman, named Trofim Lysenko, who was lying about agricultural techniques/results in order to keep his job (taking his bag like a true economic opportunist):
or the gulag system,
This you?
It feels like a false equivalence to compare liberal-in-name governments to socialist-in-name governments after the horrors that the USSR and CCP unleashed upon the world.
To that point, even the Gulag system whilst being a horrible and targeted system of political persecution, even there the vast majority of victims survived (1 million died in Gulags, 17 million survived). So you’re adopting misinformation because you’re coopted into Capitalism.
Systems of Authoritarian oppression often occure after revolutions, during famines, or during times of instability. That’s human nature.
So now we’ve moved on from “There weren’t horrors and even if there were, it wasn’t their fault” to “Everyone does it when stressed”
Wait, but if you’re quoting them acknowledging it…
…then you claim they were saying “there weren’t horrors”… isn’t that a bit like trying to have your cake and eat it too? They were either denying it, or actively discussing it - and it doesn’t look like they were denying it (just discussing the causes in a way you don’t like).
Wait, but if you’re quoting them acknowledging it….
In the same dubious way that ‘acknowledging’ there was ‘unrest’ at Tiananmen Square whilst blaming the protesters is acknowledging the Tiananmen Square massacre, fucking sure.
They were either denying it, or actively discussing it - and it doesn’t look like they were denying it
“It happened but it was just a little mistake by one man, no one involved really wanted it and they all tried to stop it!”
If someone said that about the Holocaust, would that be:
A. Denialism
OR
B. Not denialism?
Fucking forget it. One post here, and one test post on ML three months ago?
I don’t give a fuck who was responsible for the millions of deaths, the fact of the matter is it’s very specific to one pervasive strain of government that keeps popping up, like a disease, and causing the same exact problem in the USSR, China, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Syria, soon I fully expect to see it yet again in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Africa.
You shouldn’t be defending them, rather you should be blaming them for tainting and poisoning the words Socialism and Communism and preventing the actual ideology from entering mainstream discussions.
Iran is a much more ‘traditional’ clerical-fascist regime. In fact, they hate leftists with a passion that makes the tankies who bootlick them look downright deranged. Or self-destructive.
Syria, luckily, has been freed from the Assadist boot at this point! If the new government remains reasonably democratic (not guaranteed, but I’m keeping cautiously optimistic) and they can stave off Israel trying to destabilize them for fucking funsies, they may have a future ahead of them.
Afghanistan is downright feudal, honestly, in its power structures, while Pakistan is a military junta and effectively always has been. We (the US) unfortunately, had a… nonzero role in that in the way we empowered the Pakistani ISI and allowed it to play a ‘spookocracy’ role, like the intelligence services in Putin’s Russia.
Africa’s ML period is largely over, honestly. When the Soviets fell, most interest in ML projects in the continent fell as well. Africa remains divided and troubled, but largely not by ML-style systems.
The Iran–China 25-year Cooperation Program or Comprehensive Strategic Partnership between I.R. Iran, P.R. China, was signed in 2021. The two countries and their respective predecessors have the longest diplomatic relationship in human history, AFAIK. Iran funded and armed Hamas in Palestine, and China funded and armed Iran.
Syria under Assad was also allied to the Russian and Chinese circle of influence.
Afghanistan… you’re right that they have no true allies at this point, but given how the proxy wars have played out thus far I find it hard to believe they’re not somehow tied into it all. Just a conspiracy theory at this point.
African nations are allying economically and militarily with China as we speak, the most recent one was the Chinese Launchpad being built in Egypt and they’re talking about expanding that program to many other nations in Africa.
Wasn’t talking about allies, but the domestic systems they operate under. Realpolitik means that the two don’t always end up the same - the US has backed dictatorships, democracies, and even the occasional socialist regime, after all. China, likewise, will do the same - back any system as long as they benefit from it. They may generally prefer countries to adopt their system, but their hegemony is not married to that preference.
It also may seem minor, but different authoritarian systems are shit in different ways. ML systems share a great many features - largely due to being imposed wholesale by the Soviets - and their progress (or lack thereof) is like clockwork. Other authoritarian regimes wax and wane in very different ways.
I would cast doubts on that.
None of the communisms are actual communisms, I just lump the authoritarians who ally with them under the umbrella.
What a beautiful example of how quickly a Liberal becomes Fascist.
Iran isn’t Socialist. The Ba’ath Party in Syria are largely a product of US meddling in the middle east, a lot of which was done by - you guessed it - democratic Liberals coopted into helping the fascists perpetuating Capitalist greed!
Oh, I’m arguing wrong am I? Using too many facts.
Poor fool, you’ve assumed I’m a Socialist, merely because I have a grasp on history. Nope, I’m a modern progressive. But yeah keep pushing me left, you Liberal Fascists. Move to Hungry, go be buddies with Orban or Israel. Go hold the door open for right-populism some more. Let in as much Capitalist Fascism as people can stand. It’s what you do best.
“Arab Nationalism and Arab Socialism was caused by the US” is a new one, I have to admit.
… you’re literally already playing apologist for red fascist states with well-documented atrocities and genocides to their name.
I said the Ba’ath Party in modern Syria. But that shit was all founded post sykes pico anyways.
Correct attribution of causes has NOTHING to do with apologia. Which is why I’ve also corrected attributed the genocides and atrocities Liberal, Neo-Liberal and Economic Liberal Philosophies caused and contributed to.
That’s not apoligia for them either. I’ll say it again in case you missed it: Correct attribution is NOT apologia. It’s quite correct to step away from things you disagree with, including when progressives step away from Liberals.
Do you… do you not know what Ba’athist parties stand for?
… what the fuck does Sykes-Picot have to do with the US?
So you admit, then, that attributing the genocides of the USSR and PRC, which included mass executions, ethnic cleansing, and targeted famines, to a little accident all caused by Lysenko was inaccurate?
I never denied famines or the gulag system, I specifically said the gulag system was a horrible system of political persecution.
If Gaza was suddenly powerful, youd see a horrible series of massacres against Israelis. After the french revolution you had a horrible series of executions and white terror.
Systems of Authoritarian oppression often occur after revolutions, during famines, or during times of instability. That’s human nature in all systems.
What Lysenko did to perpetuate famines (to maintain his position) was in no way small. Now you’re minimizing the undesired and unintended famines.
They were directed politically after the fact but neither China nor Russia wanted them. No government actively wants a famine… Yet you’ll happily attribute it to these two governments in particular.
Are there other national famines you incorrectly think were desired by governments/ideologies?
…and I’m not talking about artificial shortages such as in Ireland, Bengal, or the concentration camps of the boer war… You know, Colonial famines.
“No government actively wants a famine… except for those non-red fascist states!”
Sorry that you believe that colonialism cannot be performed by an imperialist state with a long history of colonialism, if it has a coat of red paint. We - or rather, you - are done here.
This you?
This you?
So now we’ve moved on from “There weren’t horrors and even if there were, it wasn’t their fault” to “Everyone does it when stressed”
Wait, but if you’re quoting them acknowledging it…
…then you claim they were saying “there weren’t horrors”… isn’t that a bit like trying to have your cake and eat it too? They were either denying it, or actively discussing it - and it doesn’t look like they were denying it (just discussing the causes in a way you don’t like).
Are you a Tankie?
In the same dubious way that ‘acknowledging’ there was ‘unrest’ at Tiananmen Square whilst blaming the protesters is acknowledging the Tiananmen Square massacre, fucking sure.
“It happened but it was just a little mistake by one man, no one involved really wanted it and they all tried to stop it!”
If someone said that about the Holocaust, would that be:
A. Denialism
OR
B. Not denialism?
Fucking forget it. One post here, and one test post on ML three months ago?