On one hand, I absolutely agree with this. It’s human nature to want to avoid such a fate if one can reasonably avoid it. If I had the money and could buy my way out of participation in a fucking war…I’d hate to think that I wouldn’t.
I know it’s their home and things like that…but not everyone cares about those sorts of ties, and they become even less meaningful in death. I’m not saying I condone their actions, just that I understand.
Trust me, you’ll find an official to bribe in such a situation in Eastern Europe. This is a PR move, to arrest some from time to time and show that in the news. Happens regularly.
My dad got out of Vietnam (unwittingly) when my grandparents paid the doctor to give him a bad medical evaluation. He was all hyped to go, only to discover he had… I want to say it was flat feet or something? Basically “you’re no good at marching so you won’t war good”.
Stayed in college, got his masters and then his PhD, then went on to work for a major energy company and move out to the suburbs and live the good life into his golden years. A couple of his high school buddies went and got killed - one in a helicopter crash and another after stepping on a landmine.
When 9/11 happened and I was ready to enlist, he grabbed me by the shoulder and explained the best thing his parents ever did for him was keeping him out of the war.
I only wish every parent had this conversation with their kids. The world would be a better place.
It’s not about rich, it’s about rather middle class people somehow allocating a sum to bribe a military commissariat. See the article with 10k$ - it’s a lot in Ukraine, yes, but not what the size of such a bribe would be if only rich people would be doing that.
There was never a draft for the Iraq war. It was all volunteers.
Edit - not saying I agree with anything about the war, but just clarifying that fact - people that joined the military did so voluntarily. No one was coerced or forced to go against their will.
Yeah but, most of them were lied to. What they thought what they were going in for, was to avenge the US for the 9/11 attacks. Only to find themselves fighting against a middle-eastern leader that wasn’t Osama, instead Saddam and mostly oil. They were fighting Gulf War 2.0 than the War on Terror.
And might I add - it took us 10 FULL years since the 9/11 attacks, during Obama’s presidency, to finally catch and kill Osama. All we had to do, was go to Pakistan. Bush never achieved this feat in all 8 years of his presidency and I hope he never took credit for it because he doesn’t deserve it. So many lives lost over a stupid “Mission Accomplished” campaign. Fuck Bush.
So many lives lost over a stupid “Mission Accomplished” campaign. Fuck Bus
And let’s not forget, the US’ guy in Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, was a Zelensky-esque darling of the DC Establishment too. He even gave speeches in Congress and was specially honored during the State of the Union. We learned later on that he was corrupt as hell and making a lot of money off of being the US’ puppet. I will not be surprised when a few years have passed and we learn similar things about Zelensky.
Well, “I understand” doesn’t mean much here, now does it?!
I understand how many people who are unable to feel the pain of others, including the pain that they cause to others, such as Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Narcissists and so on will, if they think they can get away with it, not at all refrain from causing huge suffering to countless other people if they themselves come out of it better.
And it’s all irrelevant: whilst it’s psychologically easier for them to cause suffering to others (as they feel no guilt) as individuals with agency they’re still the ones who choose to or not-to cause suffering to others: if they act thus they should be punished, if they don’t they should not.
The only thing the “understanding” brings is putting such people higher up the list for surveillance and as suspect when it comes to detecting and punishing the harming of others than people who psychologically find it a lot harder act so because, unlike this group, they feel guilt.
On one hand, I absolutely agree with this. It’s human nature to want to avoid such a fate if one can reasonably avoid it. If I had the money and could buy my way out of participation in a fucking war…I’d hate to think that I wouldn’t.
I know it’s their home and things like that…but not everyone cares about those sorts of ties, and they become even less meaningful in death. I’m not saying I condone their actions, just that I understand.
I mean, I have some sympathy for the ones giving the bribes. No sympathy for the ones taking the bribes who are being charged.
For sure, that’s what I was commenting on. Can’t speak at all for the one’s accepting the bribes, knowing what it means for their fellow soldiers.
Military pay is shit and you’ve got to make up the difference somewhere.
Living in a warzone isn’t cheap.
Trust me, you’ll find an official to bribe in such a situation in Eastern Europe. This is a PR move, to arrest some from time to time and show that in the news. Happens regularly.
Doesnt have to be Eastern Europe. Plenty of examples of rich people finding ways for their kids to avaoid the draft during Vietnam and WWII in the US.
My dad got out of Vietnam (unwittingly) when my grandparents paid the doctor to give him a bad medical evaluation. He was all hyped to go, only to discover he had… I want to say it was flat feet or something? Basically “you’re no good at marching so you won’t war good”.
Stayed in college, got his masters and then his PhD, then went on to work for a major energy company and move out to the suburbs and live the good life into his golden years. A couple of his high school buddies went and got killed - one in a helicopter crash and another after stepping on a landmine.
When 9/11 happened and I was ready to enlist, he grabbed me by the shoulder and explained the best thing his parents ever did for him was keeping him out of the war.
I only wish every parent had this conversation with their kids. The world would be a better place.
Really glad to hear your grandparents had some sense.
US war fever is stupid.
Covfefe?
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What? Don’t criticize. He had his own personal Vietnam!
It’s not about rich, it’s about rather middle class people somehow allocating a sum to bribe a military commissariat. See the article with 10k$ - it’s a lot in Ukraine, yes, but not what the size of such a bribe would be if only rich people would be doing that.
I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying it’s only fine to dodge the draft when rock people do it?
I’m saying that this is very common in Eastern Europe. It’s not something only rich people do. Not that it’s fine or not.
I would definitely try to get out too. Either by bribes or just fleeing
Ultimately human conflict is meaningless and there’s a non zero chance that you’ll be immortal if you survive the next ten years.
Americans would’ve loved to have done the same thing for the entire Iraq war.
There was never a draft for the Iraq war. It was all volunteers.
Edit - not saying I agree with anything about the war, but just clarifying that fact - people that joined the military did so voluntarily. No one was coerced or forced to go against their will.
Yeah but, most of them were lied to. What they thought what they were going in for, was to avenge the US for the 9/11 attacks. Only to find themselves fighting against a middle-eastern leader that wasn’t Osama, instead Saddam and mostly oil. They were fighting Gulf War 2.0 than the War on Terror.
And might I add - it took us 10 FULL years since the 9/11 attacks, during Obama’s presidency, to finally catch and kill Osama. All we had to do, was go to Pakistan. Bush never achieved this feat in all 8 years of his presidency and I hope he never took credit for it because he doesn’t deserve it. So many lives lost over a stupid “Mission Accomplished” campaign. Fuck Bush.
Revenge is a dumbass reason to join the military.
Definitely agree with you there!
And let’s not forget, the US’ guy in Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, was a Zelensky-esque darling of the DC Establishment too. He even gave speeches in Congress and was specially honored during the State of the Union. We learned later on that he was corrupt as hell and making a lot of money off of being the US’ puppet. I will not be surprised when a few years have passed and we learn similar things about Zelensky.
The government’s stop-loss policy was a grey area on that point
Can you suggest some articles or search terms to read more about that?
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Thank you.
Well, “I understand” doesn’t mean much here, now does it?!
I understand how many people who are unable to feel the pain of others, including the pain that they cause to others, such as Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Narcissists and so on will, if they think they can get away with it, not at all refrain from causing huge suffering to countless other people if they themselves come out of it better.
And it’s all irrelevant: whilst it’s psychologically easier for them to cause suffering to others (as they feel no guilt) as individuals with agency they’re still the ones who choose to or not-to cause suffering to others: if they act thus they should be punished, if they don’t they should not.
The only thing the “understanding” brings is putting such people higher up the list for surveillance and as suspect when it comes to detecting and punishing the harming of others than people who psychologically find it a lot harder act so because, unlike this group, they feel guilt.