Since yesterday, Jordanlund is continuing to remove reporting like that from the reputed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drop_Site_News (article depicted in the screenshot is https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/israeli-spy-yoni-koren-stayed-jeffrey-epstein-apartment-ehud-barak) just for being hosted with substack. He is now moderating World News and Politics at lemmy.world.
Yes, legitimate news sites use Blogging platforms, they also use Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube and we don’t allow those links either.
goodness, that is not the point. That means these outlets post to their own website while also reposting the thing on twitter. In so many cases, their own website uses substack/wordpress! For example, https://time.com/ is the official website of Time magazine, as in the publisher of Time Person of the Year. It uses WordPress, as you can see by going to https://time.com/wp-admin/.
If he wants to target blogspam, he should be targeting things like The Daily Beast and https://www.utubepublisher.in/, which use none of the technologies he’s targeting. This ban on CMS technology is arbitrary and does not prevent poor publishing that simply registers a domain, as anyone may register a domain.
I agree.
The policies of some news coms are part of the reason I just started my own. I’m a strong believer in media pluralism, which includes seeing the value in a wide variety of news sources. How something looks or where it’s published has little to do with the quality of the journalism.
Lawfare is on substack. Unicorn riot looks trashy as hell, but they’re used as a first source by fact checkers and do high quality investigations. The Klaxon looks like a blog site run by one guy, but that guy is a professional journalist who performs well-sourced in-depth investigations.
However, those are the rules of the community and they’ve given no inclination about changing them. Better to find or create a better com.
In this case YDI since them’s the rules. If you want things changed maybe make a meta post to discuss it on the comm, see what the people think?
i’ve never seen a meta thread in that commag. i suspect that Jordanl enforces the “post news articles only” rule quite well. here’s where it’s been discussed:
https://programming.dev/comment/15884017
https://lemmy.world/comment/14172977
Jordanl simply repeats the same argument about X and disengages when people ask him to respond to the well-known refutation
I haven’t seen one either, but then again, I haven’t seen one in most other communities. Jordanlund is definitely PTB-y and abrasive in general, but give it a [Meta] or [Discussion] tag, open the discussion and make your case. If he shuts the discussion down by just removing the post/banning you I’ll definitely move it over to a PTB verdict.
@[email protected] - are reasonable [Meta]/[Discussion] posts fine to discuss what the community prefers for rules & similar on /c/[email protected]?
No, the community doesn’t set the rules.
First off, thanks for taking the time to reply.
No, the community doesn’t set the rules.
There’s setting the rules and there’s discussing the rules. Am I understanding correctly that you would not allow a reasonable discussion with the members of the communities you moderate where they can give input regarding which rules they prefer?
Be aware I may quote you on this :)
They are welcome to PM me or the others on the Mod team, the mods have a discord channel where we can discuss such things amongst ourselves.
Usually it’s more along the lines of “So and so got banned, they promise to do better if we un-ban them, how about it?” that kind of thing.
But self posts and meta posts aren’t allowed.
Alright, then I’ll do just that.
Here’s your reply @[email protected]
I’m abrasive in PTB because the audience here a) is biased as fuck and b) are generally bad actors complaining about not being treated like special snowflakes.
The complaint here is a great example. “You’re being mean!”
Well, read rule 1 before you post:
“Blogsites are treated in the same manner as social media sites. Medium, Blogger, Substack, etc. are not valid news links regardless of who is posting them. Yes, legitimate news sites use Blogging platforms, they also use Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube and we don’t allow those links either.”
Hence my verdict of “YDI” for the OP.
He’s an egotistical asshole when questioned, especially about substack hosted content.
In his eyes if he can find substack when searching the page it’s enough to call it a blog.
And according to the the admins of lemmy world this is perfectly acceptable if not encouraged behavior
Hardly PTB, though. If that’s their rule and they’re merely enforcing it. More a discussion whether their rules make any sense. But I’m not defending WorldNews and the mods. Just saying either have rules AND enforce them. Or don’t make rules in the first place. Anything else is ridiculous.
The powertrip here is less the application of the rule and more the total unwillingness to adapt the rule. It’s being used as a tool against legitimate news from legitimate sources. It could be confirmation bias, but I do not recall seeing widespread enforcement of this particular rule by moderators other than Jordan. If that is erroneous, then it’s my mistake, but based on that I believe the inclusion of Substack in that list to be Jordan’s pet contribution.
If the other mods feel the same way, perhaps they’ll make that known.
The problem with adapting the rules is that the community is not a monoculture. If we adapt a rule for one person, then someone else wants a different change and another person wants another change and you end up in an endless cycle of "But what about MEEEEEEEE! You changed it for THEM!’
The whole point of moderation is that SOMEONE has to have a spine and tell people “No.” Unfortunately telling people no is not popular.
I’ve done a fair bit of IRL and online moderation, this is a slippery slope argument and simply does not happen. Unless your referring to a natural evolution of a community, in which case the rules should serve the community and not the other way around.
While I agree it’s important to maintain a core goal/theme and modding is like steering a thankless pirate ship of sodomy, when saying No that No should support what the community needs.
Note/FYI about Jordan. They are a massive asshole anywhere whenever they are questioned. Especially when evidence is shown that they are the one in the wrong, or in times substack is brought up, change until it fits what they want.
Even better is when they can’t even follow their own comms rules and are questioned🙃
We’re already seeing it happen, the idea is to keep it from getting worse. 😉 The instant you start playing favorites with Substack blogs it will be why x but not y ad infinitum.
So it’s either allow all of it, including the garbage and bullshit, or block all of it.
Mods are volunteers, we aren’t paid to deal with “but why did you block my site and not theirs?” So we block all of it from certain sources.
I am a mod, like I said.
Do you mean that people complain or that they ask questions? Because “why that blog and not this one” is a reasonable question for a user to ask.
A general rule about quality and misinformation gives you precedent to remove content that doesn’t meet your criteria. And, let’s face it, world news allows borderline tabloids that routinely publish misinformation so that bar is low.
You’re right, being a mod isn’t paid. You can stop whenever you want if you don’t like answering questions.
You aren’t a mod in [email protected] 😉
I mod other communities and similarly don’t have these problems. World is unique due to the size and the heated opinions (notably Gaza and Ukraine).
Did you have an opinion on my comments, or did you just see an easy opening with “you aren’t a mod of world?” and take the jab? Never said I was a mod there.
World’s size and genre don’t have anything to do with my comments, and it’s hard to believe users are as bad as you say when you still mod a bunch of big communities. Kind of infantilizing the way you talk about people in the comments, too.
If I’m wrong, I’m down with hearing why.
So, are they complaining, suggesting, or asking for clarity? And, like I said, World already allows poor journalism, so the ban on substack isn’t really quality control.
You seem to bring this up every time someone asks about this. It doesn’t have to be an endless cycle of whining. It is not difficult to establish some kind of community-curated list of legitimate journalistic substacks that have bona fide journalistic teams and mastheads. It might actually be less work for you to do that instead of having to copy paste the same canned infantilizing response every other week.
It’s already an endless cycle of whining. 😉 What I’m saying is we drew the line. As soon as we open that door to “some Substacks but not others” it will be an endless drama of “You’re biased!” and “You’re a Zionist!” and “Well you’re a Nazi!”
No, just… NO. The only fair way to do it is what we’ve done. No blogs. If you want a community full of crappy blogposts, youtube videos, and low effort shitposting, nothing is stopping anyone from creating one.
I get that. Unfortunately the Threadiverse is designed with almost no option to handle mods who don’t listen or push weird agendas. Except one: to vote with our feet. In other words, leave said community. I already did that (a long time ago.) I wish we had more comfortable ways to address it, or let the community members shape their rules. But we sadly don’t have that.
I mean the entire design of Lemmy was just Reddit + “implement vote with feet feature”. It seems effective and I don’t really see what’s wrong with it. Listening to the community is supposed to be the admins’ job.
And this particular mod has caused more than one mass exodus IIRC. Dot world admin DGAF.
I mean they didn’t care when a top level mod (who also wanted to promote flat earth on .world) said that being pro-palestine was antisemitic.
Ohhhh the flat earth stuff was crazy times. lololol
I’m amazed he’s still in power after that but seeing as Jordanlund is in power, it’s impressive.
Read the rules for [email protected] :
"Rule 1:
Blogsites are treated in the same manner as social media sites. Medium, Blogger, Substack, etc. are not valid news links regardless of who is posting them. Yes, legitimate news sites use Blogging platforms, they also use Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube and we don’t allow those links either."
Christ, he’s still a moderator over there? What a joke of an administration. Guess they expected us to forget how much of a dishonest piece of shit Jordan is, or that he’d somehow change his ways despite how obvious it is that he has no intention of doing so.
He has been given full acceptance and approval from the admins of world so he’s also never going to improve.
I don’t think it’s fair to single out Jordan. It’s the entire admin and much of the mods. .world could rework their rules at any time but they don’t. There’s a reason for it.
At this point I’m inclined to believe Jordan just is the admin, the admin is an alt account of Jordan.
Oh! Good point.
Worst than that, they realize he’s the only one who will do exactly what they ask for and tons of free mod work
he was removed from the modlists for 3 months now, and things have been just fine afaik, until two days ago when he suddenly started modding again
He was removed from some comms but didn’t think worldnews was one of them.
And has been modding at least the last month
https://lemmy.world/modlog/2840?page=1&actionType=All&modId=1499846
I was only removed from, I think 2 communities? Been modding the rest all along.
Yes that’s the issue
Not an issue when people follow the posted rules of the communities. 😉
I’m nowhere near talented enough to be an Admin.
It’s the only reason, no one else would deal with this. I hope if I caused such a constant shitstorm my admins would remove me.
I thought the issue with Substack was that they wouldn’t remove nazi content?
Accurate. And then they send out a mass notification promoting one of the nazi groups. Fuck substack.
By that standard, most corporate media shouldn’t be allowed.
i think most corporate media meet the standard of not hosting nazis
Lemmy.world sucks. Lemmy has been more enjoyable since I blocked it.
This is the way.
Yeah I don’t agree with that policy either, it makes little sense to me. Many “establishment” media publications are just as full of one-sided horseshit as a lot of the alt media platforms. But anyway, whatever I think, it is nonetheless a longstanding policy of that community afaik and so long as Jordan is in charge it’s unlikely to ever change.
Some of the substack “blogs” he’s removed who did everything to mitigate all his prejudaces against blogs were even journalists who refused to concede their voice to capital and are freelancing and self publishing now. Like he’s basically one step away from saying that ProPublica is “just a blog” and refusing any of their reporting on news stories (often stories that they are the only publication talking about). It creates a MASSIVE blind spot in [email protected] 's feed about what is and isn’t worthwhile knowledge about current events to have. It ultimately only feeds the right wing outrage machine even if it’s only sticking to the centrist position of the outrage machine
Yes I agree with you!
It doesn’t matter what an individual Substack blog does or doesn’t do. The reason there’s a blanket rule is we aren’t going to engage in “But, but, you allowed this OTHER Substack blog, why not MIIIIIIIIIIINE??!?!? Mine is special! I’m special!”
No, just… No. Rule 1 - No Blogs.
Of course. He’s jordanlund.
Substack is not a CMS, it’s a platform like Blogger or Medium. I pretty easily found other articles on the same story from places that don’t host Nazis.
Correct, and as noted in rule 1, there are MULTIPLE platforms that are not allowed in !world [email protected] besides substack, notably Facebook, Youtube, Xitter, etc.
Someone could post a CNN link on Facebook and it would get removed too, but for some reason people get really butthurt over Substack.
Fair point. I’d use the same arguments about web building platforms, though. Al Jazeera uses WordPress.com, the web building platform not the software. Jordanlund has removed sites for being hosted by WordPress before IIRC.
(IMO Substack might unfortunately be the lesser evil: Medium doesn’t compensate writers nearly as much, Blogger is owned by Google, and WordPress.com is pricier and waging an ego contest under Matt Mullenweg.)
Jordanlund has removed sites for being hosted by WordPress before IIRC.
Do you have any examples of this?
IIRC I have removed Wordpress links but not because they are Wordpress. There have been other removable issues with them. I can’t think of a specific example.
One rule in !world [email protected] that is squishier than I would like is:
“Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed.”
I lean heavily on “MAY”, it’s not that opinion articles are 100% removed, they MAY be removed. Mods discretion.
I get a lot of reports of “Opinion”, I look at it and go “Yeah, but that’s a salient point” and leave it alone.
If the ‘opinion’ is “Ukrainians are Nazis” or “The Uyghur genocide is not a genocide” that shit is going to get removed with a quickness.
This is a great metaphor for liberal politics. It doesn’t matter if they make no sense or are harmful, rules are rules and we have to abide by them.
This is a technical YDI with a heaping side of CLM(s). The comm rules spell out that Substack is verboten, even though the rule itself is misguided. Expect any such posts to be removed, most likely by the mod in question, until such point that either the rule or the modlist changes.
The continued presence of such a technicality in the rules degrades the credibility of the comm as a whole.
I agree
