After seeing a megathread praising Mao Zedong, an actual mass killer, and a post about a guy saying “99% of westerners are 100000000000% sure they know what happened in ‘Tiny Man Square’ […] the reasons for this are complex and involve propaganda […],” I am genuinely curious what leads people to this belief system. Even if propaganda is involved when it comes to Tiananmen Square, it doesn’t change the atrocities that were/are committed everywhere else in China.
I am all for letting people believe what they want but I am lost on why one would deliberately praise any authoritarian system this hard.
Can someone please help me understand why this is such a large and prominent community? How have these ideals garnered such a following outside of China?
EDIT: Thank you to everyone who has responded! This thread has been very insightful :)
There it is! The goalposts just got kicked into another galaxy.
The goalpost is “actually existing socialism actually exists”
That’s it. The fact that it exists under siege simply means that our goal should be to lift the boot off their necks, instead of wasting time criticizing them. Are they imperfect, flawed, with tragic excesses and rightist deviations? Yes. That’s beyond the scope of anything we can possibly do. Our project, if you actually believe in anything other than capitalism, is to use our privileged position within the core to fight for the defeat of the empire: lift the blockades, end the espionage, stop regime change.
Right now it’s Venezuela on the chopping block. You will help them far more by fighting the US than by criticizing Maduro.
Defenses of “AES” always equivocate on whether it is actually socialism.
At best, the term is a deliberate lie, but the situation is much worse.
As soon as the characterization of socialism is challenged, it is walked backed, and the challenger is gaslighted for saying that what was said moments earlier was ever said.
“AES” is a nonsense concept defended by nonsense arguments.
In what way is AES “nonsense?” Countries where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the workint class in control of the state factually exist. It isn’t a “deliberate lie” because you either disagree with that or with the understood definition of socialism.
It’s the only socialism that actually exists, hence, actually existing socialism.
So, choose. Do you want capitalism, or the only existing alternative? In Venezuela you can support Maduro, or you can support Trump’s regime change. Those are the only options that exist. Pick one.
You insist it is socialism.
When someone correctly objects that socialism not yet exists, you deflect and make excuses.
Socialism is worker control of production. Chinese workers being employed by companies in China is not socialism.
“AES” is obscurantist nonsense.
China commanded the economy to shut down to implement the zero COVID policies, it likely saved the lives of millions of workers. That’s not something any other continental capitalist country could even attempt, because in capitalist countries the market is in command. There were a few islands (or semi-islands like South Korea) which could boast similar successes, but they were clear outliers that benefited from not having land borders. The rest of us live at the whim of the market and we were all marched to our deaths.
That convinced me that actually existing socialism actually exists. It’s not perfect, with many capitalist compromises and internal flaws, but politics are in command.
When I point out that you have to pick a side, you vacillate. You insist that there aren’t any sides worth choosing so you can avoid dirtying your hands in the real world. You just retreat into the perfect socialism that does not exist and will only ever exist in your head. You have removed yourself from the struggle entirely. You might as well not even exist.
Chinese workers do not control production in China.
Do you agree or disagree?
I am not interested in the deflections to apologetics.
The Party controls production and workers control the party. In capitalist countries, markets control the parties. In socialist countries, the Party controls the markets.
Politics are in command.
You aren’t interested in the real world. You’re only interested in the perfect socialism that exists in your imagination and no where else.
If workers control production, then all are free to dissociate from the Party at will, to form a new party, or have no association with any party.
The facts are that the Party controls the state, and the state controls workers. Therefore, all workers are bound involuntary to one party that determines their fate.
Denying that Chinese workers are subordinated under state power is sophistry and apologetics.
No, you’re just desperate for an excuse to dismiss valid criticisms
Thanks for the feedback.
You’re welcome!