what’s funny is that while the institutional gender pay disparity is mostly gone (at least where i work) - there’s still a couple of dozen ways women get screwed out of money for doing the same work.
my favorite case from this year was with data engineer position - simple middle level position Pandas Airflow Databricks stack, 3k median. two candidates hired - same skill level, salary - male 3,5k, females 2,7k - why? if you look strictly at the skill assessment reports - you wouldn’t even be able to tell where is who. so what the fuck is going on? well, if you look at the HR report - dude been showboating and oversharing about his skills all the way for the ladies and that’s good thing that should be rewarded while the lady just laid down the facts as she was asked during the interviews and was deemed distant and not very personable, “she doesn’t seem happy to be here” so to speak therefore she is not that good. fucking literally. and then the very same recruitment and human resources specialists wonder why people leave.
it’s more of a skill issue on recruiter’s part because you have to cut through bullshit like that. it is less of a problem with dev teams because loudmouths get humbled eventually but it is a huge problem for sales, business development and marketing - it can do a lot of damage. funnily enough - AI tools for candidate screening and chatbot interviews actually help spotting that kind of thing.
Unfortunately, people who sell themselves to the company make more than people who don’t. Hell, sometimes just asking for a pay bump during the hire/on-boarding process can make a difference. Two of the last few gigs I’ve been at have given me 5-10k more a year simply because I laid out my creds and asked for the high end of the scale when I probably would have been given the mid range if I didn’t ask and justify it.
Many people don’t understand that you’re selling yourself to the company, and they’re buying your time and labor. If you present a mediocre product, don’t surprise when you get a mediocre offer. I can’t stand it, but not playing the game doesn’t get you anywhere.
the whole “sell yourself to the company” thing is not what it seems. it has less to do with candidates getting around the idea of self-presentation and more with the overall degradation of recruitment and human resources talent pool. there are lots of people who bear the titles but can’t do their jobs properly. and they look for shortcuts and easy decisions. “selling yourself to the company” is one of them. it’s not a knock on the candidate trying to get by, but if the recruiter whose job is to spot that (among other things) can’t spot that - that’s a problem that makes a mess. hell, most companies don’t even have transparent pay scale systems to clearly communicate who gets what and why so the salaries are all over the place for no good reason and it leads to toxicity and disgruntlement.
You’re also assuming recruiters are involved at all, and it’s not just HR and a hiring manager looking over resumes, which doesn’t match my experience at all. There’s also the explosion of hyper specialization in job roles, so a lot of HR drones can’t do much more than look for buzzwords and see if they think your personality will fit the org.
Just about every job I’ve had was either via resume or word of mouth, and in both cases, there’s not really someone between me and the interview process to handle those items you called out. So selling myself was how I both got the job and pay bumps. The one recruiter I used was good and put me in with a good job that was a good fit (and had a public pay range), and I still sold myself to the company to hit the high end of the range (a guy hired after me makes less than me in the same position, but has a lower skill set).
Selling yourself makes you more money, recruiter or not. It’s fine to blame the system for its failures, but the candidate needs to put themselves forward and advocate for themselves. The only time that isn’t needed is when you have something like a union that sets your pay based on seniority/position/tenure, and selling yourself doesn’t change your rate. Any other situation, and you’re selling yourself short.
Like I said before, I hate the game, but I have to play it. And ignoring the need to sell yourself only hurts yourself, even if it does feel icky in the moment.
And I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong about the degredation of the talent pool, but a lot of that is due to the current work landscape being back to the pre-pandemic state where companies have the upper hand in negotiations, leading candidates to spray and pray, targeting jobs they’re not qualified for (since all of the entry level jobs are being taken away). I got my current gig and the golden years after the pandemic (when we actually had the upper hand for like a year or so), and helping my manager interview for another body is painful with how many people are applying for a mid-level job when they’re a better fit for our entry level.
what’s funny is that while the institutional gender pay disparity is mostly gone (at least where i work) - there’s still a couple of dozen ways women get screwed out of money for doing the same work.
my favorite case from this year was with data engineer position - simple middle level position Pandas Airflow Databricks stack, 3k median. two candidates hired - same skill level, salary - male 3,5k, females 2,7k - why? if you look strictly at the skill assessment reports - you wouldn’t even be able to tell where is who. so what the fuck is going on? well, if you look at the HR report - dude been showboating and oversharing about his skills all the way for the ladies and that’s good thing that should be rewarded while the lady just laid down the facts as she was asked during the interviews and was deemed distant and not very personable, “she doesn’t seem happy to be here” so to speak therefore she is not that good. fucking literally. and then the very same recruitment and human resources specialists wonder why people leave.
I have a very high suspicion they are pulling same trick to a degree depending on overall background like race too.
Yeah, there is a clear preference in racial hiring which I’m sure affects salary negotiation as well.
probably, but that stuff doesn’t go into reports so i can’t spot it from there.
well, sounds like a skill issue on her part at this point.
it’s more of a skill issue on recruiter’s part because you have to cut through bullshit like that. it is less of a problem with dev teams because loudmouths get humbled eventually but it is a huge problem for sales, business development and marketing - it can do a lot of damage. funnily enough - AI tools for candidate screening and chatbot interviews actually help spotting that kind of thing.
Unfortunately, people who sell themselves to the company make more than people who don’t. Hell, sometimes just asking for a pay bump during the hire/on-boarding process can make a difference. Two of the last few gigs I’ve been at have given me 5-10k more a year simply because I laid out my creds and asked for the high end of the scale when I probably would have been given the mid range if I didn’t ask and justify it.
Many people don’t understand that you’re selling yourself to the company, and they’re buying your time and labor. If you present a mediocre product, don’t surprise when you get a mediocre offer. I can’t stand it, but not playing the game doesn’t get you anywhere.
the whole “sell yourself to the company” thing is not what it seems. it has less to do with candidates getting around the idea of self-presentation and more with the overall degradation of recruitment and human resources talent pool. there are lots of people who bear the titles but can’t do their jobs properly. and they look for shortcuts and easy decisions. “selling yourself to the company” is one of them. it’s not a knock on the candidate trying to get by, but if the recruiter whose job is to spot that (among other things) can’t spot that - that’s a problem that makes a mess. hell, most companies don’t even have transparent pay scale systems to clearly communicate who gets what and why so the salaries are all over the place for no good reason and it leads to toxicity and disgruntlement.
You’re also assuming recruiters are involved at all, and it’s not just HR and a hiring manager looking over resumes, which doesn’t match my experience at all. There’s also the explosion of hyper specialization in job roles, so a lot of HR drones can’t do much more than look for buzzwords and see if they think your personality will fit the org.
Just about every job I’ve had was either via resume or word of mouth, and in both cases, there’s not really someone between me and the interview process to handle those items you called out. So selling myself was how I both got the job and pay bumps. The one recruiter I used was good and put me in with a good job that was a good fit (and had a public pay range), and I still sold myself to the company to hit the high end of the range (a guy hired after me makes less than me in the same position, but has a lower skill set).
Selling yourself makes you more money, recruiter or not. It’s fine to blame the system for its failures, but the candidate needs to put themselves forward and advocate for themselves. The only time that isn’t needed is when you have something like a union that sets your pay based on seniority/position/tenure, and selling yourself doesn’t change your rate. Any other situation, and you’re selling yourself short.
Like I said before, I hate the game, but I have to play it. And ignoring the need to sell yourself only hurts yourself, even if it does feel icky in the moment.
And I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong about the degredation of the talent pool, but a lot of that is due to the current work landscape being back to the pre-pandemic state where companies have the upper hand in negotiations, leading candidates to spray and pray, targeting jobs they’re not qualified for (since all of the entry level jobs are being taken away). I got my current gig and the golden years after the pandemic (when we actually had the upper hand for like a year or so), and helping my manager interview for another body is painful with how many people are applying for a mid-level job when they’re a better fit for our entry level.