So to be clear, you think elephants contemplate the meaning of life? Okay, and do you think they can grasp the bizarre fact that formal systems can’t prove their own consistency or even the concept of prime numbers?
How many elephants are out there right now, wondering about the nature of right and wrong?
Zero
Zero elephants are doing any of that, because these are abstract concepts.
But that’s exactly what I’m saying. There are elephants out there contemplating morality. Even dogs do it, even if it’s massively based on the rules we impose on them
Not math though. Math exists in the minds of humans, it doesn’t even exist in the universe. There is no two of anything, there’s one object and another similar object
What does exist are ratios and harmonics, and animals have no problem understanding them
Math exists in the minds of humans, [not animals].
This is incorrect. Every animal we’ve ever researched, including insects like bees, can do arithmetic.
Anyway, not a single one of the examples you’ve given involves second-order reasoning. These are all prosaic interactions with the environment, which is how most animas (yes, including dumb humans) experience the world.
First-order reasoning: “What is moral?”
Second-order reasoning: “Do moral beliefs constitute knowledge claims?”
First-order reasoning: “One plus one is two.”
Second-order reasoning: “number theory is either inconsistent or incomplete.”
First-order reasoning: “What does this word mean?”
Second-order reasoning: “How do words connect with their meanings?”
The examples I gave you are extreme, but to be fair so is your confusion.
I believe that orcas are out there having philosophical debates and singing stories of their history and mythology that dates back even further than our own. I don’t think they’re doing math proofs, but if they are I’d be curious what base they use
All the cutting edge science suggests we’re not special. We are not different in kind from animals
Since science became a thing, we’ve been drawing lines between us and animals since we could no longer gesture to the soul. We’ve progressively disproven every single one. I’ve had this debate over various lines so many times
So to be clear, you think elephants contemplate the meaning of life? Okay, and do you think they can grasp the bizarre fact that formal systems can’t prove their own consistency or even the concept of prime numbers?
How many elephants are out there right now, wondering about the nature of right and wrong?
Zero
Zero elephants are doing any of that, because these are abstract concepts.
But that’s exactly what I’m saying. There are elephants out there contemplating morality. Even dogs do it, even if it’s massively based on the rules we impose on them
Not math though. Math exists in the minds of humans, it doesn’t even exist in the universe. There is no two of anything, there’s one object and another similar object
What does exist are ratios and harmonics, and animals have no problem understanding them
This is incorrect. Every animal we’ve ever researched, including insects like bees, can do arithmetic.
Anyway, not a single one of the examples you’ve given involves second-order reasoning. These are all prosaic interactions with the environment, which is how most animas (yes, including dumb humans) experience the world.
First-order reasoning: “What is moral?” Second-order reasoning: “Do moral beliefs constitute knowledge claims?”
First-order reasoning: “One plus one is two.” Second-order reasoning: “number theory is either inconsistent or incomplete.”
First-order reasoning: “What does this word mean?” Second-order reasoning: “How do words connect with their meanings?”
The examples I gave you are extreme, but to be fair so is your confusion.
I believe that orcas are out there having philosophical debates and singing stories of their history and mythology that dates back even further than our own. I don’t think they’re doing math proofs, but if they are I’d be curious what base they use
All the cutting edge science suggests we’re not special. We are not different in kind from animals
Since science became a thing, we’ve been drawing lines between us and animals since we could no longer gesture to the soul. We’ve progressively disproven every single one. I’ve had this debate over various lines so many times
It’s human arrogance
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