I believe that should not be a valid defense, ever.
If you’re not OK with what you’re ordered to do, you should not do it (and we should have a system of justice and social support which honors that).
If you actually do something you’re responsible for that deed, ie possibly culpable.
If you’re being pressured/manipulated/… the person doing so is responsible for that, so culpable as well - but notin place - if applicable.
German law actually contains an apologetic first step in this direction, called ‘Remonstration’. I think we can all guess how it wound up in that particular legal system.
Besides being able to point at the article and say “see, we fixed it”, I’m not aware of a single (let alone significant) case where it was actually/successfully used.
In somewhat interesting contrast, German law does not codify protection of whistle blowers, for example.
Had someone from the IDF explain to me why they are the most moral army in the world.
He told me that they are ordered to disobey illegal order (wow,really? like every army in the world technically does?)
He then explained that they have absolute trust in orders because it is the most moral army in the world, and defying an order is a crime, because the order cannot be immoral or illegal because the IDF is the most moral army in the world.
I think I stopped the conversation around there, because I doubt they can understand basic logic that goes beyond propaganda.
Last I heard of him he was sad because he got alcoholism from doing minor war crimes in gaza, just casually talking about the things he looted, which he considers “rescuing” from the rubble.
Disagree. One of the main purposes of military training (in most, maybe all, cases) is to strip everyone of their individual autonomy.
If you’re not OK with what you’re ordered to do, you should not do it
The problem with this that soldiers are explicitly trained to not even consider their own judgement of their orders. They don’t stop, judge, then pull the trigger. They just pull the trigger. If they disobey an order, they’re court martialed. It’s the military’s justice system that then gets to decide if the order was unlawful. The system is designed to strip soldiers of their power.
If a 28yo enlists, they share some responsibility simply by knowingly joining an immoral organization. But most new recruits are in high school. They don’t know what the hell is going on.
All this to say: the leaders who have stripped young boys of their autonomy in order to have them commit horrific acts that will scar them for life in order to protect their own regime, they’re the real villains. I see the individual soldiers as victims.
“I was just following orders” is what all the Nazis said.
I yearn for the day that American soldiers are put on trial and hanged for their crimes against humanity.
The US has given itself permission to invade the Hague before allowing that to happen.
Ooh, ooh, can we start with the Commander in Chief? Why did the assassins have to miss 😥
I believe that should not be a valid defense, ever.
If you’re not OK with what you’re ordered to do, you should not do it (and we should have a system of justice and social support which honors that).
If you actually do something you’re responsible for that deed, ie possibly culpable.
If you’re being pressured/manipulated/… the person doing so is responsible for that, so culpable as well - but not in place - if applicable.
German law actually contains an apologetic first step in this direction, called ‘Remonstration’. I think we can all guess how it wound up in that particular legal system.
Besides being able to point at the article and say “see, we fixed it”, I’m not aware of a single (let alone significant) case where it was actually/successfully used.
In somewhat interesting contrast, German law does not codify protection of whistle blowers, for example.
Had someone from the IDF explain to me why they are the most moral army in the world.
He told me that they are ordered to disobey illegal order (wow,really? like every army in the world technically does?)
He then explained that they have absolute trust in orders because it is the most moral army in the world, and defying an order is a crime, because the order cannot be immoral or illegal because the IDF is the most moral army in the world.
I think I stopped the conversation around there, because I doubt they can understand basic logic that goes beyond propaganda.
Last I heard of him he was sad because he got alcoholism from doing minor war crimes in gaza, just casually talking about the things he looted, which he considers “rescuing” from the rubble.
Disagree. One of the main purposes of military training (in most, maybe all, cases) is to strip everyone of their individual autonomy.
The problem with this that soldiers are explicitly trained to not even consider their own judgement of their orders. They don’t stop, judge, then pull the trigger. They just pull the trigger. If they disobey an order, they’re court martialed. It’s the military’s justice system that then gets to decide if the order was unlawful. The system is designed to strip soldiers of their power.
If a 28yo enlists, they share some responsibility simply by knowingly joining an immoral organization. But most new recruits are in high school. They don’t know what the hell is going on.
All this to say: the leaders who have stripped young boys of their autonomy in order to have them commit horrific acts that will scar them for life in order to protect their own regime, they’re the real villains. I see the individual soldiers as victims.
gross. Although in the US the law is pretty much useless, so I guess at least Germany is honest? 🤷♀️
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders?wprov=sfla1