The US built its state through genocide and slavery, and split from Britain in order to cement its independent interests in that realm.
What strange view do you have of China that you think talking about the processes of a socialist state in international politics is remotely the same as talking about the birth of a settler nation (the US) that has been terrorizing and exploiting the world since it became globally powerful? What forum did you think you posted on?
Hmm, I looked. Far as I can tell, their thing is that Russia and China are failing a moral test on Palestine and so are traitors as a whole. If so, I can certainly understand their frustration, but the criticism needs to have more depth than “they [allegedly] could be doing x and they aren’t”.
One of the reasons I try not to say much on China in detail is because I don’t actually know all that much about how it is in the details and so trying to judge properly what it could or couldn’t be doing logistically in this moment would be a wild guess at best. For all I know, there are experienced members of the CPC who think China should be doing more on the Palestine issue and are trying to make it happen. But I don’t know and I never see people citing stuff like that. Instead, people tend to talk about morality in isolation from conditions and it comes across as something like “the foreigner has to be one of perfect victim, perfect savior, or member of the villain squad, there is no inbetween.” I don’t think China is perfect (nor do I think anyone or entity is) and I wish that people who criticized them would go beyond these categories.
When will we (leftist) finally graduate from liberal thought such as “Overton Window”, “Brainwashing” and general supremacy of moralism. Its CLASS ANALYSIS that is our primary modus operandi and Historical Materialism is our eye. You will never lecture people into doing the right thing - ESPECIALLY when it will have an negative economic effect on them.
Return to your point, I agree with a 100% - the incessant need to declare china as your enemy is very strange (not really) for the western left - like they actively want china to this revisionist “bad country” so they can support us state line in “good leftist way”. My heart breaks everyday the genocide of the Palestinian continues and I wish like most of this site that it would end no matter. But the brains ought to know that WISHING and WANTING the world to be a way, does not make it so. We need the collective power to actually create the change we want to see, and the first step is perceiving what is in front of us, not what we WISH to see.
China will not help unless Hamas is the undisputed authoritative voice of the Palestinian people, unless a significant amount of Muslim - especially arab countries actually want to oppose the west. Even the most internationalist force that was the soviet union only helped when there was enough support for resistance, they never created communist revolutions in vast colonial estates of the west out of thin air. Not only is the harsh truth that the PRC’s responsibility is to the Chinese people first and foremost, but also that china increasingly meddling in an outright hostile (more and more governments sign the Abraham accords for example) region is contrary to their grand multipolar non-interventionist order they are selling as the alternative to the west empire.
Comrades in the middle east need to create the strong, UNITED, and organized anti-west force that china and russia are willing to court.
Damn cool story you should write more fiction. Who supports the genocide in Myanmar again?
China and Russia are both on the UNSC they are no longer doing a “popular civil revolution”. Complicity in the genocide of Palestine is a massive failure and L.
Siding with Israel and calling a country socialist is a great joke. Respond to who is supporting the genocide in Myanmar and the rest because you sure are evading it.
Do you not believe that China is run by a working class vanguard party (also known as a dictatorship of the proletariat)? What do you think a socialist state is?
Please answer the question. If I am to understand you are yourself a socialist, then I think it’s a fair question to ask what you think a socialist state is.
We may now say a few words to sum up. The law of contradiction in things, that is, the law of the unity of opposites, is the fundamental law of nature and of society and therefore also the fundamental law of thought. It stands opposed to the metaphysical world outlook. It represents a great revolution in the history of human knowledge. According to dialectical materialism, contradiction is present in all processes of objectively existing things and of subjective thought and permeates all these processes from beginning to end; this is the universality and absoluteness of contradiction. Each contradiction and each of its aspects have their respective characteristics; this is the particularity and relativity of contradiction. In given conditions, opposites possess identity, and consequently can coexist in a single entity and can transform themselves into each other; this again is the particularity and relativity of contradiction. But the struggle of opposites is ceaseless, it goes on both when the opposites are coexisting and when they are transforming themselves into each other, and becomes especially conspicuous when they are transforming themselves into one another; this again is the universality and absoluteness of contradiction. In studying the particularity and relativity of contradiction, we must give attention to the distinction between the principal contradiction and the non-principal contradictions and to the distinction between the principal aspect and the non-principal aspect of a contradiction; in studying the universality of contradiction and the struggle of opposites in contradiction, we must give attention to the distinction between the different forms of struggle. Otherwise we shall make mistakes. If, through study, we achieve a real understanding of the essentials explained above, we shall be able to demolish dogmatist ideas which are contrary to the basic principles of Marxism-Leninism and detrimental to our revolutionary cause, and our comrades with practical experience will be able to organize their experience into principles and avoid repeating empiricist errors. These are a few simple conclusions from our study of the law of contradiction.
You might be inclined to think I’m trying to “make excuses” somehow taking the conversation in this direction. Why I’m taking it in this direction is you seem to be operating on a binary train of thought that goes something like: if there is any perceived/alleged contradiction between one thing and another, then one or the other must be wholly thrown out. With dialectics, we work out how to navigate the contradictions inherent in things in order to develop toward something better.
Idealism might say we can overcome this with sheer willpower and conviction instead, and bypass the need to engage with contradictions. But the evidence would indicate that doesn’t work, especially at scale, and people largely need to be organized in relation to their conditions in order to develop into a different form, which then changes their conditions and also changes the organization and so on.
If you’d like, you are welcome to dislike me and think that I, like you speak about China, am not doing enough for the most victimized in the world. But I will still try to make this point about process and development.
Excuse me?
The US built its state through genocide and slavery, and split from Britain in order to cement its independent interests in that realm.
What strange view do you have of China that you think talking about the processes of a socialist state in international politics is remotely the same as talking about the birth of a settler nation (the US) that has been terrorizing and exploiting the world since it became globally powerful? What forum did you think you posted on?
Just look at the post history, lol. Most of what you said went over their head already.
Hmm, I looked. Far as I can tell, their thing is that Russia and China are failing a moral test on Palestine and so are traitors as a whole. If so, I can certainly understand their frustration, but the criticism needs to have more depth than “they [allegedly] could be doing x and they aren’t”.
One of the reasons I try not to say much on China in detail is because I don’t actually know all that much about how it is in the details and so trying to judge properly what it could or couldn’t be doing logistically in this moment would be a wild guess at best. For all I know, there are experienced members of the CPC who think China should be doing more on the Palestine issue and are trying to make it happen. But I don’t know and I never see people citing stuff like that. Instead, people tend to talk about morality in isolation from conditions and it comes across as something like “the foreigner has to be one of perfect victim, perfect savior, or member of the villain squad, there is no inbetween.” I don’t think China is perfect (nor do I think anyone or entity is) and I wish that people who criticized them would go beyond these categories.
When will we (leftist) finally graduate from liberal thought such as “Overton Window”, “Brainwashing” and general supremacy of moralism. Its CLASS ANALYSIS that is our primary modus operandi and Historical Materialism is our eye. You will never lecture people into doing the right thing - ESPECIALLY when it will have an negative economic effect on them.
Return to your point, I agree with a 100% - the incessant need to declare china as your enemy is very strange (not really) for the western left - like they actively want china to this revisionist “bad country” so they can support us state line in “good leftist way”. My heart breaks everyday the genocide of the Palestinian continues and I wish like most of this site that it would end no matter. But the brains ought to know that WISHING and WANTING the world to be a way, does not make it so. We need the collective power to actually create the change we want to see, and the first step is perceiving what is in front of us, not what we WISH to see.
China will not help unless Hamas is the undisputed authoritative voice of the Palestinian people, unless a significant amount of Muslim - especially arab countries actually want to oppose the west. Even the most internationalist force that was the soviet union only helped when there was enough support for resistance, they never created communist revolutions in vast colonial estates of the west out of thin air. Not only is the harsh truth that the PRC’s responsibility is to the Chinese people first and foremost, but also that china increasingly meddling in an outright hostile (more and more governments sign the Abraham accords for example) region is contrary to their grand multipolar non-interventionist order they are selling as the alternative to the west empire.
Comrades in the middle east need to create the strong, UNITED, and organized anti-west force that china and russia are willing to court.
China had a big mouth for 2 years and now endorses the US-Israeli genocide of Palestinians and supports Israeli colonization of Gaza.
What would you have wanted done differently then? Genuinely asking.
They specifically abstained and did not endorse it in any way
Damn cool story you should write more fiction. Who supports the genocide in Myanmar again?
China and Russia are both on the UNSC they are no longer doing a “popular civil revolution”. Complicity in the genocide of Palestine is a massive failure and L.
Which part of what I said is supposedly fictional? Point me to the exact quote(s), please.
Siding with Israel and calling a country socialist is a great joke. Respond to who is supporting the genocide in Myanmar and the rest because you sure are evading it.
Do you not believe that China is run by a working class vanguard party (also known as a dictatorship of the proletariat)? What do you think a socialist state is?
no
Please answer the question. If I am to understand you are yourself a socialist, then I think it’s a fair question to ask what you think a socialist state is.
If socialism is supporting imperialism and genocide then I sure as hell am not one. But labels have no meaning these days anyways.
Socialism is not, as a practice, for the purpose of supporting imperialism or genocide.
That said, I think I see what’s going on. There is probably a better primer on dialectics someone could provide, but this is what I have on hand to recommend, so here it is: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_17.htm
Here is the conclusion from it:
You might be inclined to think I’m trying to “make excuses” somehow taking the conversation in this direction. Why I’m taking it in this direction is you seem to be operating on a binary train of thought that goes something like: if there is any perceived/alleged contradiction between one thing and another, then one or the other must be wholly thrown out. With dialectics, we work out how to navigate the contradictions inherent in things in order to develop toward something better.
Idealism might say we can overcome this with sheer willpower and conviction instead, and bypass the need to engage with contradictions. But the evidence would indicate that doesn’t work, especially at scale, and people largely need to be organized in relation to their conditions in order to develop into a different form, which then changes their conditions and also changes the organization and so on.
If you’d like, you are welcome to dislike me and think that I, like you speak about China, am not doing enough for the most victimized in the world. But I will still try to make this point about process and development.