You know that America basically invented modern coffee culture that exists everywhere else now, right? We’re well beyond truck stop diner coffee.
Hell, even Mr Coffee was a great improvement for its time.
Edit: the next European who posts “you need to learn about other countries” while also thinking Starbucks is the only thing the US does for coffee gets . . . I dunno, maybe a gif of a cat falling off a fence.
Lol whut?
Espresso, Cappuccino and Latte macchiato are Italian, Drip filter coffee was invented in Germany as well as decafCold brew is Duch/Japanese
Boiled Coffee is from the Middle East/North Africa
Irish Coffee is from Ireland, but similar drinks are known with different names and different spirits at leas in France and Germany.
The French Press is from France, first patented by an Italian Instant Coffee from New ZealandFrappé is from Greece
Iced coffee is from Algeria
You Americans might have invented abominations like Starbucks, but that’s not coffee culture worldwide. Noone I know drinks that stuff. There are somewhere around 100,000 and coffee bars in Italy alone, 31 of which are Starbucks built for American tourists. (Maybe it’s 35 by now). There are 10 times more traditional Cafés in Berlin alone, than Starbucks in all of Germany.
Lol whut? Espresso, in particular, has been heavily developed over the past few decades with a greater understanding of things like water temperature and channeling. A lot of that started with American baristas.
Starbucks is what started it. It didn’t finish there.
Espresso, in particular, has been heavily developed over the past few decades with a greater understanding of things like water temperature and channeling.
dude…see the world, there is an entire industry of coffee machines in Italy since the 1920s. A hundred years ago.
Starbucks was and is second rate shit for suburban moms.
I just read about the “second wave” for the first time, and allegedly it was Starbucks’ idea to “transform coffee consumption into a social event instead of just consumption of coffee”.
But I can guarantee you, that that’s a purely American view, as coffee consumption has been a social event long before in the rest of the world. Fika in Sweden was a thing since the 19th century. Sospreso has been a thing in Italy a century before Starbucks copied it. I don’t know since when Kaffe und Kuchen is a thing in Germany, but my Gradma told me how her Grandma used to put out the white table cloth only for the Sunday Koffee. And she was long dead when Starbucks got their Idea of serving pastries with coffee. Austria got their first Kaffeehaus a century before the USA even existed. In Mecca, coffee houses were banned from 1512-1524 as they were too sociable for the imams who feard the politicization of the coffee drinkers.
And don’t get me started on the “third wave”, a marketing term coined by some hipsters in Los Angeles or New York to sell overpriced “specialty” coffee to other hipsters from San Francisco or Boston.
Instead of assuring me, maybe you could enlighten us by telling us what the fuck it is, you’re talking about. Because the American
modern coffee culture that exists everywhere else now
does not exist in Europe. At least not outside of Starbucks or maybe McDonalds. The Italians still drink the same espresso from Lavazza or illy as they always did, the German still buy their filter coffee from Jacobs and Tchibo, just like in the 1960s.
The coffee Drinks/ preparations that still define coffee today are not significantly changed by the US outside of the context of US chains, they largely are of Italian origin with some other countries preparations included and some re-popularized recently under the banner of 3rd wave coffee.
Third Wave Coffee definitely does exist and is significant change in coffee culture that was sparked probably in the US, but it largely is concerned not with drink preparation and selection but with coffee growing and roasting, moving from blended and darker roasted to single origin (traceable) and lighter roasted coffee. This change being sparked in the US, does not make the phenomenon US specific, much like Hippie culture was US lead it still was a global thing like third wave Coffee is as well.
does not exist in Europe. At least not outside of Starbucks or maybe McDonalds. The Italians still drink the same espresso from Lavazza or illy as they always did, the German still buy their filter coffee from Jacobs and Tchibo, just like in the 1960s.
This is not true, Europe is as much of a leader in third wave Coffee as the US and Australia, but the people drinking and selling Lavazza or Tchibo are the the same people (or their kids) as the people drinking it in the 60s, a different smaller demographic: smaller roasters, young people and people interested in coffee; have largely embraced third wave coffee globally.
I can find a third wave coffee place in every German city >200k pop, often even a roaster, and all international cities > 1M pop will have at least 10 different such shops. People that aren’t plugged into the culture of third wave will not recognize these shops as significantly different to other places serving coffee first. Much like a person might not recognize differences in craft beer or specific nuances among teas if they are unfamiliar with the space. This does not mean these differences don’t exist.
Third wave even though it was arguably started/inspired around Starbucks, is nowadays as opposed to the Starbucks way of doing coffee as it is opposed to the other large corporate incumbents including Tchibo Nestle and such. Fair trade although nowadays largely rejected by third wave for direct import relationships, is in some ways 2nd/3rd wave adjacent, as both argue and act for more equitable trade as well as pro social and pro environmental production.
So even though third wave can be expensive and probably originates in the US, this does not invalidate the concept for the rest of the world. To me third wave is good coffee with legacy European small roasters, German/Italian Eiskaffe, Nordic Filter, French and Austrian Coffeehouse being fine to good and everything else being sorta bad but still coffee. Every time I’ve taken my parents to a third wave place they’ve liked it at least as much but often more than my second category which is where their platonic ideal probably was, but they don’t search out for them like me because they’ve formed their coffee habits 3+ decades ago when 3rd wave wasn’t a thing. The better traditional Coffee places in Germany have moved in the direction of third wave as their premium/local legacy roasters have moved in this direction.
And don’t get me started on the “third wave”, a marketing term coined by some hipsters in Los Angeles or New York to sell overpriced “specialty” coffee to other hipsters from San Francisco or Boston.
Of course specialty and 3rd wave are marketing terms, but there is real and good Praxis behind them which imo. makes for better tasting coffee and maybe a better coffee industry.
The price hit is significant with beans costing 2+ times as much as legacy roasters, but for prepared coffee there is essentially no difference in price. The differences here are more explained by (foot traffic customers)/(commercial rent) where it is served than anything else, you can get coffee that is cheaper but just barely. Almost nowhere will serve anything under 2€, and specialty espresso/batch filter are typically under 3€ (Germany).
What Starbucks did was exist. Yes, it is crap coffee. You know who agrees? Baristas who used to work at Starbucks. They left and formed their own little shops. And they started tinkering with espresso machines. As a result of that, espresso has improved dramatically over the last 20 years. It’s more consistent and avoids extracting undesirable flavors.
Bro please stop. You are absolutely 100% wrong and have no idea what you are talking about. Just accept it as a an opportunity for uncovering some of the bullshit propaganda your patriot bubble creates.
Wait I was about to downvote you because it sounds like something that an AI would hallucinate but actually TIL that espresso drinks (not espresso) were actually modified and popularized by starbucks and peets and their versions, and not the Italian versions, are the ones that are most popular through the world
I really hate that we have to filter everything through “is this post just AI?”.
Edit: and when I said “Starbucks is what started it”, I was thinking more along the lines of Second Wave Coffee and how that’s led into everything else since, not just espresso. Starbucks isn’t considered top quality even in the US, but they should get credit for moving things along.
My personal favorite coffee shop, the one that makes absolutely stellar espresso, is from a guy who started it in a friend’s skateboard shop.
You’re stuck on the original origin. That’s not where things have ended up. Espresso around the world is nothing like what it was in 19th century Italy. It’s not even what it was like in the late 20th century.
Italian coffee snob here. Even Starbucks coffee isn’t bad. They have a lot of stuff on the menu that frankly leaves me with more questions than answers, but you don’t have to order that.
The filter coffee is way, way better than the average.
While I would recommend both learning about other countries as a general principle, and sending me a GIF of a cat, I’m finding it hard to come down on American coffee while living on a continent than thinks French coffee or German coffee is perfectly fine.
Oh, and btw. Mr Coffee was not an improvement, it was a copy of a device invented in Germany 20 years before, perfected by the Danish company EVA. Mr Coffee is unknown outside of North America because these devices already existed in the rest of the world.
Copying stuff from somewhere else is not a problem. China does it all the time and it’s fine. The problem with the Yanks is, that after copying stuff, they make it worse and afterwards claim they’ve invented it.
What made Mr Coffee unique wasn’t being the first drip machine. Its design was extremely cheap AND reliable. There’s a reason the design is still the most popular today.
Mr Coffee was not extremely cheap outside of America, it doesn’t even exist outside of America because the problem it solves was already solved by other companies outside of America.
I understand that it might have been a great improvement for the American coffee drinkers (I don’t know, I’ve never heard of Mr Coffee until yesterday because I’m not American), but it did nothing to influence “coffee culture everywhere else” as the OP boldly claims, because everywhere else is outside of America!
You know that America basically invented modern coffee culture that exists everywhere else now, right? We’re well beyond truck stop diner coffee.
Hell, even Mr Coffee was a great improvement for its time.
Edit: the next European who posts “you need to learn about other countries” while also thinking Starbucks is the only thing the US does for coffee gets . . . I dunno, maybe a gif of a cat falling off a fence.
Lol whut? Espresso, Cappuccino and Latte macchiato are Italian,
Drip filter coffee was invented in Germany as well as decaf Cold brew is Duch/Japanese Boiled Coffee is from the Middle East/North Africa Irish Coffee is from Ireland, but similar drinks are known with different names and different spirits at leas in France and Germany. The French Press is from France, first patented by an Italian
Instant Coffee from New Zealand Frappé is from Greece Iced coffee is from Algeria
You Americans might have invented abominations like Starbucks, but that’s not coffee culture worldwide. Noone I know drinks that stuff. There are somewhere around 100,000 and coffee bars in Italy alone, 31 of which are Starbucks built for American tourists. (Maybe it’s 35 by now). There are 10 times more traditional Cafés in Berlin alone, than Starbucks in all of Germany.
Americans did invent ruining coffee, though!
Starbucks is an abomination. They tried to launch in Australia in the 2000s and ended up losing loads of money and closing most of their stores.
They couldn’t compete with even our worst chain stores let alone our endless individual coffee shops.
Lol whut? Espresso, in particular, has been heavily developed over the past few decades with a greater understanding of things like water temperature and channeling. A lot of that started with American baristas.
Starbucks is what started it. It didn’t finish there.
dude…see the world, there is an entire industry of coffee machines in Italy since the 1920s. A hundred years ago. Starbucks was and is second rate shit for suburban moms.
Americans just turned coffee into hot desserts.
Which is a shame, because coffee should be a desert flavoring, and Starbucks is still trash.
I’m not even talking about Starbucks beyond them starting the second wave. Travel yourself. American coffee does not end with Starbucks.
If you’re going to continue that strawman, then there’s nothing left to discuss.
I just read about the “second wave” for the first time, and allegedly it was Starbucks’ idea to “transform coffee consumption into a social event instead of just consumption of coffee”.
But I can guarantee you, that that’s a purely American view, as coffee consumption has been a social event long before in the rest of the world. Fika in Sweden was a thing since the 19th century. Sospreso has been a thing in Italy a century before Starbucks copied it. I don’t know since when Kaffe und Kuchen is a thing in Germany, but my Gradma told me how her Grandma used to put out the white table cloth only for the Sunday Koffee. And she was long dead when Starbucks got their Idea of serving pastries with coffee. Austria got their first Kaffeehaus a century before the USA even existed. In Mecca, coffee houses were banned from 1512-1524 as they were too sociable for the imams who feard the politicization of the coffee drinkers.
And don’t get me started on the “third wave”, a marketing term coined by some hipsters in Los Angeles or New York to sell overpriced “specialty” coffee to other hipsters from San Francisco or Boston.
And I assure you, there’s more to it than just building a coffee chain.
Instead of assuring me, maybe you could enlighten us by telling us what the fuck it is, you’re talking about. Because the American
does not exist in Europe. At least not outside of Starbucks or maybe McDonalds. The Italians still drink the same espresso from Lavazza or illy as they always did, the German still buy their filter coffee from Jacobs and Tchibo, just like in the 1960s.
You both are talking past each other.
The coffee Drinks/ preparations that still define coffee today are not significantly changed by the US outside of the context of US chains, they largely are of Italian origin with some other countries preparations included and some re-popularized recently under the banner of 3rd wave coffee.
Third Wave Coffee definitely does exist and is significant change in coffee culture that was sparked probably in the US, but it largely is concerned not with drink preparation and selection but with coffee growing and roasting, moving from blended and darker roasted to single origin (traceable) and lighter roasted coffee. This change being sparked in the US, does not make the phenomenon US specific, much like Hippie culture was US lead it still was a global thing like third wave Coffee is as well.
This is not true, Europe is as much of a leader in third wave Coffee as the US and Australia, but the people drinking and selling Lavazza or Tchibo are the the same people (or their kids) as the people drinking it in the 60s, a different smaller demographic: smaller roasters, young people and people interested in coffee; have largely embraced third wave coffee globally.
I can find a third wave coffee place in every German city >200k pop, often even a roaster, and all international cities > 1M pop will have at least 10 different such shops. People that aren’t plugged into the culture of third wave will not recognize these shops as significantly different to other places serving coffee first. Much like a person might not recognize differences in craft beer or specific nuances among teas if they are unfamiliar with the space. This does not mean these differences don’t exist.
Third wave even though it was arguably started/inspired around Starbucks, is nowadays as opposed to the Starbucks way of doing coffee as it is opposed to the other large corporate incumbents including Tchibo Nestle and such. Fair trade although nowadays largely rejected by third wave for direct import relationships, is in some ways 2nd/3rd wave adjacent, as both argue and act for more equitable trade as well as pro social and pro environmental production.
So even though third wave can be expensive and probably originates in the US, this does not invalidate the concept for the rest of the world. To me third wave is good coffee with legacy European small roasters, German/Italian Eiskaffe, Nordic Filter, French and Austrian Coffeehouse being fine to good and everything else being sorta bad but still coffee. Every time I’ve taken my parents to a third wave place they’ve liked it at least as much but often more than my second category which is where their platonic ideal probably was, but they don’t search out for them like me because they’ve formed their coffee habits 3+ decades ago when 3rd wave wasn’t a thing. The better traditional Coffee places in Germany have moved in the direction of third wave as their premium/local legacy roasters have moved in this direction.
Of course specialty and 3rd wave are marketing terms, but there is real and good Praxis behind them which imo. makes for better tasting coffee and maybe a better coffee industry.
The price hit is significant with beans costing 2+ times as much as legacy roasters, but for prepared coffee there is essentially no difference in price. The differences here are more explained by (foot traffic customers)/(commercial rent) where it is served than anything else, you can get coffee that is cheaper but just barely. Almost nowhere will serve anything under 2€, and specialty espresso/batch filter are typically under 3€ (Germany).
What Starbucks did was exist. Yes, it is crap coffee. You know who agrees? Baristas who used to work at Starbucks. They left and formed their own little shops. And they started tinkering with espresso machines. As a result of that, espresso has improved dramatically over the last 20 years. It’s more consistent and avoids extracting undesirable flavors.
Bro please stop. You are absolutely 100% wrong and have no idea what you are talking about. Just accept it as a an opportunity for uncovering some of the bullshit propaganda your patriot bubble creates.
https://www.gaggia.com/our-history/
Wait I was about to downvote you because it sounds like something that an AI would hallucinate but actually TIL that espresso drinks (not espresso) were actually modified and popularized by starbucks and peets and their versions, and not the Italian versions, are the ones that are most popular through the world
the fuck are you on about? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espresso
The world doesn’t revolve around the fucknited states of no healthcare
Just stop. You’re not getting the nuance at all.
ironic, since there is very little nuance to the whippedcream “coffecintos” that starfucks serves
When did I defend Starbucks in this thread beyond “they started some things that are important”?
I really hate that we have to filter everything through “is this post just AI?”.
Edit: and when I said “Starbucks is what started it”, I was thinking more along the lines of Second Wave Coffee and how that’s led into everything else since, not just espresso. Starbucks isn’t considered top quality even in the US, but they should get credit for moving things along.
My personal favorite coffee shop, the one that makes absolutely stellar espresso, is from a guy who started it in a friend’s skateboard shop.
What language do you think espresso, cappucino, americano, latte, venti, etc. is?
You’re stuck on the original origin. That’s not where things have ended up. Espresso around the world is nothing like what it was in 19th century Italy. It’s not even what it was like in the late 20th century.
Do americans actually believe this shit or are you trolling?
I mean, Americans also believe they invented pizza, cars or putting meat into a breadroll.
Yeah, I’ve had someone make similar arguments with pizza before. Beats me
Italian coffee snob here. Even Starbucks coffee isn’t bad. They have a lot of stuff on the menu that frankly leaves me with more questions than answers, but you don’t have to order that. The filter coffee is way, way better than the average.
While I would recommend both learning about other countries as a general principle, and sending me a GIF of a cat, I’m finding it hard to come down on American coffee while living on a continent than thinks French coffee or German coffee is perfectly fine.
Oh, and btw. Mr Coffee was not an improvement, it was a copy of a device invented in Germany 20 years before, perfected by the Danish company EVA. Mr Coffee is unknown outside of North America because these devices already existed in the rest of the world.
Copying stuff from somewhere else is not a problem. China does it all the time and it’s fine. The problem with the Yanks is, that after copying stuff, they make it worse and afterwards claim they’ve invented it.
What made Mr Coffee unique wasn’t being the first drip machine. Its design was extremely cheap AND reliable. There’s a reason the design is still the most popular today.
Nothing else comes close.
Mr Coffee was not extremely cheap outside of America, it doesn’t even exist outside of America because the problem it solves was already solved by other companies outside of America.
I understand that it might have been a great improvement for the American coffee drinkers (I don’t know, I’ve never heard of Mr Coffee until yesterday because I’m not American), but it did nothing to influence “coffee culture everywhere else” as the OP boldly claims, because everywhere else is outside of America!
“you” may not have, but all your drip machines use it’s designs… Have a good day!