Wouldn’t it be nice to just support human rights? The one thing all of these groups have in common is their humanhood.
Well at least until we reach a ‘body of Theseus’ point in technological augmentation. Then we may need to rebrand ‘human rights’ to ‘consciousness rights’ or something more catchy.
We don’t even know what “consciousness” is, let alone any kind of “consciousness rights”.
Like, it’s just not something really anyone’s been looking into, with the exception of probably the legit worlds smartest human who “retired” from physics 30 years ago
Like, one old dude dicking around in retirement, and a couple of associates.
There’s a long way to go before we can replicate a consciousness.
You want new cool things made sooner rather than later, and existing stuff to be maintained better then focus on building up people instead of destroying them
That would definutely get a lot more people on board. From left and right. More so right
Physicists are often pointed to as the ‘smartest’ among us, yet when they turn to other fields, their genius isn’t always transferable. I personally would prefer psychologists or philosophers to determine what is consciousness.
Also, I wasn’t suggesting we replicate consciousness. I was touching on whether a human is still a human if, to put it extremely, neck down is machinery instead of biology. I might be okay with a Wall-e body.
Dude started with “pure math” gave MC Escher the ideas for his most famous artwork from doodles, then decided applying math in physics was better, so when he and Stephen Hawking finished up Einstein’s work, Hawking was the charismatic “face” everyone knew while Penrose was doing the real heavy mental lifting off screen.
When he reached a normal retirement age, he devoted 30 years to the study of consciousness, most of that time he was literally the only person researching it.
Like, it’s good to doubt, and I didn’t drop the name at first…
But it’s not like he jumped from computer science to biological engineering.
It’s like 70 years of research along a continued evolution from pure math to consciousness…
Like, he literally “wrote the book” on how it’s all connected. Someone who doesn’t know anything about science can read “The Road to Reality” and learn everything from 1+1=2 to what’s still pretty much bleeding edge physics.
Literally no one who has ever existed on the planet Earth is more knowledgeable on what consciousness really is, and how it works
I’m aware of Penrose and his position relative to Hawking.
When I wrote psychologists or philosophers, note I didn’t write psychologist or philosopher. It’s great work Penrose did to be sure, but I’d prefer not to rely on a foundation of thought laid by a single mind, no matter their intellect or dedication to science.
With respect to you, I made a quick joke about whether human rights would be applied to cyborgs in the future, I was not questioning the fundamental nature of what it is to be.
Well at least until we reach a ‘body of Theseus’ point in technological augmentation. Then we may need to rebrand ‘human rights’ to ‘consciousness rights’ or something more catchy.
It’s gotta be 100% replacement to be Theseus but arguably even just a preserved brain in a robot like fallout wouldn’t still be “you”.
So I took it as replicating a brain, which for a long time was built on the assumption we just needed to replicate an amount of neurons. So that’s why I went off on a tangent. We don’t know 100% how it works, just that replicating neurons alone won’t replicate a consciousness.
Interesting viewpoint. I disagree the Theseus argument requires total replacement, but that’s minutiae not worth getting into at the minute.
I always considered the more complex question of the thought experiment not being if the whole is different when the components are replaced, but when that change would occur if you assume change occurs in the first place.
Difficult to think about. I might need a bigger brain.
Seems to me the misunderstanding was my joke being interpreted as an opening to a semantics debate when it was merely an offhand remark loosely connected to the subject matter of this post.
However I’ve checked the clock just now and it does appear to be minutiae time.
I don’t consider the literal tale of Theseus to be the only point of valid argument when invoking his name. Had the man returned with 85% of the ship boards replaced, the same philosophical argument about the ship not returning with him could be had.
Mentioning his name in relation to an issue communicates a concept. Similar to a child suddenly spouting a detailed piece of factual information being called Einstein. The concept being communicated is that Einstein was a genius, not that he was a mathematician.
To frame this with an analogy, when I’m at the grocers looking for salted peanuts, I go to the section where I also find almonds, hazelnuts, and pistachios. I wouldn’t berate management if I couldn’t find them around the chickpeas and lentils.
Wouldn’t it be nice to just support human rights? The one thing all of these groups have in common is their humanhood.
Well at least until we reach a ‘body of Theseus’ point in technological augmentation. Then we may need to rebrand ‘human rights’ to ‘consciousness rights’ or something more catchy.
Yah I’m sure that will be any day now.
Progress is being made. I’ve been smacking coconuts together these past couple days.
We don’t even know what “consciousness” is, let alone any kind of “consciousness rights”.
Like, it’s just not something really anyone’s been looking into, with the exception of probably the legit worlds smartest human who “retired” from physics 30 years ago
Like, one old dude dicking around in retirement, and a couple of associates.
There’s a long way to go before we can replicate a consciousness.
Lets also bundle it with getting cool things
You want new cool things made sooner rather than later, and existing stuff to be maintained better then focus on building up people instead of destroying them
That would definutely get a lot more people on board. From left and right. More so right
Physicists are often pointed to as the ‘smartest’ among us, yet when they turn to other fields, their genius isn’t always transferable. I personally would prefer psychologists or philosophers to determine what is consciousness.
Also, I wasn’t suggesting we replicate consciousness. I was touching on whether a human is still a human if, to put it extremely, neck down is machinery instead of biology. I might be okay with a Wall-e body.
It’s Roger Penrose…
Dude started with “pure math” gave MC Escher the ideas for his most famous artwork from doodles, then decided applying math in physics was better, so when he and Stephen Hawking finished up Einstein’s work, Hawking was the charismatic “face” everyone knew while Penrose was doing the real heavy mental lifting off screen.
When he reached a normal retirement age, he devoted 30 years to the study of consciousness, most of that time he was literally the only person researching it.
Like, it’s good to doubt, and I didn’t drop the name at first…
But it’s not like he jumped from computer science to biological engineering.
It’s like 70 years of research along a continued evolution from pure math to consciousness…
Like, he literally “wrote the book” on how it’s all connected. Someone who doesn’t know anything about science can read “The Road to Reality” and learn everything from 1+1=2 to what’s still pretty much bleeding edge physics.
Literally no one who has ever existed on the planet Earth is more knowledgeable on what consciousness really is, and how it works
I’m aware of Penrose and his position relative to Hawking.
When I wrote psychologists or philosophers, note I didn’t write psychologist or philosopher. It’s great work Penrose did to be sure, but I’d prefer not to rely on a foundation of thought laid by a single mind, no matter their intellect or dedication to science.
With respect to you, I made a quick joke about whether human rights would be applied to cyborgs in the future, I was not questioning the fundamental nature of what it is to be.
It’s gotta be 100% replacement to be Theseus but arguably even just a preserved brain in a robot like fallout wouldn’t still be “you”.
So I took it as replicating a brain, which for a long time was built on the assumption we just needed to replicate an amount of neurons. So that’s why I went off on a tangent. We don’t know 100% how it works, just that replicating neurons alone won’t replicate a consciousness.
Interesting viewpoint. I disagree the Theseus argument requires total replacement, but that’s minutiae not worth getting into at the minute.
I always considered the more complex question of the thought experiment not being if the whole is different when the components are replaced, but when that change would occur if you assume change occurs in the first place.
Difficult to think about. I might need a bigger brain.
It’s …
It’s literally the whole point. Not just to the saying, but the miscommunication that led here, it’s literally and figuratively the point.
Tldr:
Thesus leaves on a ship
Has to replace 50% of components
Replaces the other 50%
Returns home.
People welcome his ship back, but no piece of his ship has ever been to his homeland, the ship hasn’t returned, it’s the ships first arrival.
If it’s not completely replaced, Thesus isn’t relevant.
It can be made a lot simpler, if you use something like an axe than a whole ship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNOk4yyxE38
Seems to me the misunderstanding was my joke being interpreted as an opening to a semantics debate when it was merely an offhand remark loosely connected to the subject matter of this post.
However I’ve checked the clock just now and it does appear to be minutiae time.
I don’t consider the literal tale of Theseus to be the only point of valid argument when invoking his name. Had the man returned with 85% of the ship boards replaced, the same philosophical argument about the ship not returning with him could be had.
Mentioning his name in relation to an issue communicates a concept. Similar to a child suddenly spouting a detailed piece of factual information being called Einstein. The concept being communicated is that Einstein was a genius, not that he was a mathematician.
To frame this with an analogy, when I’m at the grocers looking for salted peanuts, I go to the section where I also find almonds, hazelnuts, and pistachios. I wouldn’t berate management if I couldn’t find them around the chickpeas and lentils.
Oh, would you look at the time.
reminds me of the game soma by the authors of amnesia