Argument about why an instance doesn’t want to federate with another instance that’s devoted to political trolling. Apparently that kind of behavior is simply a core tenet of the belief system, and to criticize it is to reject the whole ideology.
Argument about why an instance doesn’t want to federate with another instance that’s devoted to political trolling. Apparently that kind of behavior is simply a core tenet of the belief system, and to criticize it is to reject the whole ideology.
I’m a little bit curious what’s going on there. The right-wing political “fellow leftist” booby trap users are fairly easy to identify, likewise the people who are sincerely expressing bad opinions (that grouping can even be fun to talk with for a while I think.) I even mastered some of the weirder characters like Yogsoth and recognized some who work along similar lines. Recently I have added streamer stans to my little menagerie of weird-Lemmy-interact-ers, I sort of tried for a while to understand them and stopped without really having reached enlightenment, but it is okay.
Cowbee is not any of those. He is still a mystery to me. He must be sincere about what he’s saying, no one would spend that level of time and energy unless they meant it on some level. And his style of argumentation doesn’t really betray that he doesn’t believe it himself or know that it is factually weak… if I had to guess, I would say that he is completely sincere, he just kind of has some alternative facts at work that are hard to break through because it’s all bedrocked on this alternate reality, coupled with I think an emotional attachment to “his team” needing to be the right team that must be defended at all costs. That’s my best guess honestly. I think the infinite energy comes from wanting to stand up for “his people” in some sense, and I think he cares to send infinite messages on whatever topic and wants to rearrange facts around to support whatever he’s trying to “win” at the moment just because it is fun to fight for his team and feel successful.
But honestly, that is all guessing. Another possibility is that he has a position of leadership in some kind of leftist organization, and so this stuff is tied in with his sense of self-image, and so he has to defend it to the death any time it comes up and comes onto his radar. No idea. He’s not really stupid or vacuous like a lot of the infinite-internet-arguers, but talking with him is usually not productive just because his side of the conversation will contain 0 listening, so you’ll just be hearing lectures until you feel like stopping the interaction.
Honestly, Cowbee is one of the few over there that I retain full respect for. They tend to stay on topic and polite, and that’s good enough for me. The rest I can accept under viewpoint diversity.
I do agree there’s some alternative facts at play, but that’s unsurprising in this world of ours, particularly given how information exchange has become so international. Alternative fact sets are an inevitable result of that, given that different people have had their own values and narratives for … as long as there have been countries I suppose. Longer, even, countries aren’t really that old. Spin is much older.
I don’t know, man. He’s not unhinged or assaultive like some of his comrades, but he engages in wild bad faith, misrepresenting the other side’s arguments to make his own look better by comparison and similar behavior. I feel like there is a word for what it means when someone’s generally civil, but their way of approaching the conversation is offensive and unproductive…
(I actually don’t agree with “sealioning” as a sin. Generally it seems like it’s a way to evaluate a discussion where one participant is being focused and factual, and the other one is being unhinged and changing the subject, and claim that the focused and factual person is the evil one. But Cowbee to me is a perfect example of someone who even when being “polite” generally speaking is poisoning the well. Just check out his assertion in this thread that everyone on lemmy.world is on the DNC team and just deletes any leftist viewpoint of any type… I don’t know, maybe he genuinely believes that. But it is clearly nonsense from anyone who is paying attention, and you can literally see people in this thread trying to tell him that’s not the reason and him rejecting it “no that is the reason” and so on.)
@[email protected] would it help if I offered specific examples of the wild majority of the lemmy.world viewpoint being anti-DNC and people posting leftist viewpoints equal to the lemmy.ml viewpoint? I completely guarantee you, this is one of those MAGA “free speech” type constructions where you are upset because lemmy.world does not ban dissent from a very particular leftist viewpoint, and you’re conflating that with them banning the leftist viewpoint. If you genuinely believe they ban leftists I can give more or less an infinite number of examples of the leftist viewpoint you want to see, not being banned from lemmy.world.
I don’t appreciate the psychoanalysis you tried to do on me. The truth isn’t that I’m a leader of some org, nor am I paid to be a communist, nor do I argue for the sake of “feeling successful.” I’m a communist, and I like to talk about Marxist-Leninist theory, correct misconceptions of Marxism-Leninism in theory and in practice, and generally try to help create more comrades through honestly and firmly explaining my views and engaging with people’s points.
I’m not a troll, nor am I bad-faith, me being “polite” is more because I believe it gives the highest chance of the other person actually engaging with what I have to say. I’m not doing so to feel like a better person, to stroke my own ego, or anything like that. It’s purely for the utility of increasing the chance of reciprocity.
As for the Lemmy.world admins, they are still federated with hilarious-chaos, as Carcosa said in this thread. Lemmy.world, if they were truly serious about brigading, would have defederated from hilarious-chaos, which does have documented cases of brigading.
Hexbear does not, however, have any such instances of brigading, nor did Lemmy.world even give federation a chance. The only remaining explanation is that Lemmy.world did not want to federate with an active instance that is ideologically incompatible for fear of the hassle moderating would become on an ideological basis. This is why, in Carcosa’s argument, they specifically mention that when hilarious-chaos is still federated yet is confirmed guilty of what Hexbear is only accused of, the only logical explanation is ideological incompatibility.
I’m aware that you can cherry-pick leftist stances on Lemmy.world. You can critique the DNC, etc. My point is that the manner in which the Lemmy.world admins and mods censor is by outright defederating from the communist instances, cultivating an environment hostile to such views among active users, and giving infinite leeway to moderators and power users that constantly shit-stir, as well as remaining federated with instances like hilarious-chaos that do brigade and have documented evidence of such.
All in all, it’s well-documented that the Lemmy.world mods and admins have a number of team members actively hostile to critique of Israel, protect zionism, remove critique of the DNC as “misinformation,” etc. The fact that they don’t remove every single leftist comment does not mean they are not taking an active role in steering the narrative and pushing out leftist viewpoints. It isn’t an all or nothing thing, and I never claimed it was.
Like Carcosa said, I would have preferred the .world admin team just outright state that it’s due to ideological incompatibility. That’s what Hexbear does when voting to defederate from, say, sh.itjust.works or Lemmy.world. It’s clear and honest.
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https://lemmy.world/search?q=israel&type=Posts&listingType=All&page=1&sort=TopWeek
Click on any one, and you will find a comments section absolutely chock-full of critique of Israel. What is it that you are complaining about? What types of stories or comments would you like to be able to post on lemmy.world that you currently cannot, can you give me an example?
Got it 😃. Anyway, can you point me to one single instance where something critiquing the DNC was removed as “misinformation”? I don’t know anyone active on LW, in or out of authority, who likes the DNC.
Yes. Like I said, your complaint is that they don’t ban people who disagree with you, or “shit-stir” in the propaganda framing. By not banning your opponents, they are “cultivating” an environment where people are allowed to be hostile to you, and you don’t like that.
(Of course, on Hexbear, that framing is accurate – anyone who comes in with a “liberal” viewpoint will, indeed, stir shit, because dozens of people will start howling, posting abuse, yelling at them, basically turn the thread into a debacle, and then they will be banned. Which, like I said, is why Hexbear is widely defederated.)
I have more to say on the wider issues, but let’s start with asking you to back up the statements about LW’s moderation by answering the factual questions above. I actually strongly dislike lemmy.world’s moderation also, just for different reasons than you do, and I think your reasons are entirely just fantasies that .ml and friends share between themselves that have no basis in reality. Show me why I’m wrong though.
Sure, here’s what got removed and eventually got me permabanned from politicalmemes on Lemmy.world: example 1, example 2, example 3, and example 4. Here’s an image of a couple of them for easier access (old screenshot):
So, when combined with the fact that they defederate from leftist instances, prop up well-known shit-stirrers, and permaban dissent from leftists, it’s pretty clear that the leftism is the issue for them. You may turn a blind eye to the mod and admins being abusive, and their hostility towards leftists, but this community is filled with examples of moderator and admin abuse on Lemmy.world directed against leftists. It’s undeniable that the anti-left bias is pushed by the Lemmy.world leadership, and blocking Hexbear is only one of many examples of that in practice.
Really don’t know why you expect me to take you seriously when you call me a liar to my face.
Are you permabanned from [email protected]? It doesn’t look to me like you are.
https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=5159239
Can you show me a screenshot of the permaban?
It looks like they removed those comments. I mean, I actually agree with you here, they shouldn’t have removed that, it’s sort of a slippery slope to go down that “misinformation” should be subject to prior restraint, because one person’s misinformation is another person’s dissent.
Regardless, it doesn’t look to me like they are banning “critique of Israel,” or for that matter of Democrats. Look at the rest of the comments section where your comments got removed, or the link to the search I showed you. Surely you can see that critique of Israel is the almost unanimous majority viewpoint on lemmy.world, right? Or no? Tell me, that’s not just a rhetorical question.
Most of the things you get banned for are for intentionally misrepresenting the other person’s point of view, which makes perfect sense to me, or apologia for genocide (presumably in Xinjiang) which I agree with you they should not ban for. My point is that critiquing Israel is absolutely fine on lemmy.world. Is that all you have, is that one time a year ago, a few of your comments got removed? Have you ever been banned from [email protected] or something for critiquing Israel? I critique Israel constantly and I have never been banned for it. This just seems like this wild counterfactual world you are trying to spin up here, where all I see factually is that a year ago one time you got some comments removed. Maybe I am missing seeing the permaban but I don’t see it.
If you make up facts and then use them to justify with an expansive spun-up narrative about it, then sure. My point is that when you ground it in the actual facts of what happened, it becomes a lot less pretty-clear.
Yes, I’m permabanned from politicalmemes. The original reason given was “you knew this was coming,” I’m not sure why it doesn’t show in the modlog anymore but here’s what it looks like when I’m logged in to Lemmy.ml, no ability to upvote or downvote nor comment nor post(notice your comment notification at the top):
Secondly, I did not intentionally misinterpret anyone. Check the original thread, the user was deliberately saying that they doubt self-reported trans identification:
As you can see, yerbouti was responding to comments about Hexbear having a high proportion of transgender users, which they proceded to claim were lying, equating them to proud boys members claiming they aren’t racist.
As for my dozen bans from comms PugJesus moderates, they lost an argument in a comm they were getting called out for and banned me permanently from every comm they mod. Had nothing to do with Xinjiang or anything, just PJ emotionally lashing out.
I don’t have more .world bans because I abandoned that place. There’s nothing I want to participate in there. I haven’t made up any facts, I’ve given my analysis on what I believe is happening, and justified that with real facts and evidence. Simple as that. There’s more examples of this kind of moderation on Lemmy.world, such as in worldnews, and these are only the posted about kinds.
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Hey I’m banned from politicalmemes too, you and me are so alike!
One thing you have to remember about the communists is they see everything through the lens of class. They do not acknowledge any other form of conflict as legitimate, everything else is a smokescreen to distract from their attempts at class warfare. They have an overarching goal in mind, and they work backwards to diagnose the hurdles, placing value only in how something pertains to their goals. They’re zealots, no different from how a religious fundamentalist views everything in the framing of their religion’s worldview. Attempting to remain objective takes a backseat to these goal-oriented perspectives.
The reason I accept the civil ones is they do have valuable input on occasion. While I don’t see class as the central cause of society’s ills, I do acknowledge class conflict as one of many “legitimate” forms of conflict. And in the same way that I acknowledge a theologian viewing the world from some religious perspective and analyzing all problems from that singular point of view, I acknowledge these folk’s rights to do the same from their class-based perspective. At least class exists, where someone’s mythical battles between heaven and hell may very well not.
It really is helpful if you remember that while we may be trained in trying to stay process-oriented through things like the scientific method, that’s not a default way of thinking or anything. So, if you’re going to argue with one, you need to remember they’re not going to see even basic facts from your perspective. What is a fluke/outlier vs what is the statistical trend, is just interpretation until you have the hard numbers, after all. Keeping the focus on actual data and verifiable facts, while pointing out what is merely subjective interpretation, is a good way to keep the conversation somewhat balanced.
I almost agree with this. At least with Lemmy Communists, if you try to get them to sympathize with the Chinese working class and their struggle against their ruling classes, they will all of a sudden become a landlord-supporting cheer squad. I think WistfulNihilist pegged it right, they see everything through the lens of “our team vs. your team” and don’t care very much about the facts or will deliberately twist them around to suit that narrative, because they think that’s what they are supposed to do.
Completely agree. And I sort of agree with the other bit, I don’t really consider them as “enemy” because of that or anything. I’ve had productive conversations with them sometimes and sometimes learned relevant things. But yes, it makes them dangerous, and it also makes it darkly hilarious that they constantly accuse everyone who isn’t uncritically on their team in all things, of being victims of some kind of dogmatic propaganda and say that they’re only banning all dissent on their instances because they’re trying to help everyone see the light.
Doesn’t work, if you source anything they don’t agree with they’ll do mental gymnastics to find a way to discredit it in their mind and for their audience.
It’s part of what you mentioned but it’s deeper. Even evidence is viewed through the lens of my side or their side. They will only every engage with the evidence that agrees with them. People who push this point get ad hominemed, then the communist commentator (there has to be a shorter word for that) will play victim when this person inevitably does it back.
It’s the same playbook every time, and it’s clearly a community thing.
That’s the path to victory though. As soon as you draw out the ad hominem, you’ve forced them to pivot off of the main topic, withdrawing from an untenable position.
You can’t actually expect a zealot to admit they’re wrong (edit: on an issue of core belief), that’s not realistic. You need to be comfortable accepting something else as the conclusion of the argument, by necessity.
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I understand, but I’m not so sure that’s a viable long-term strategy in the modern, digital world. Perhaps you could argue it’s the best we’ve got, but I think the jury is still out on that.
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I agree with you and think he’s absolutely sincere. You either put that much energy into something because it’s passion or a paycheck, and I don’t think there’s any indication that they’re a bad actor, they are a dyed in the wool communist who’s been here since the beginning. They might work or be attached to an official org or something, but I don’t think that enters into to it at all except to say they are very educated. Also as you noted, whip fucking smart!
But that has created the situation I refer to as an argument trap. Because arguments with Cowbee are not productive because they are not moving them in any direction except not liking you and using meta arguments to dismantle any serious points you make, and to dismantle any influence you may have.
It’s fun to watch and anyone who argues with them will eventually be reduced to a series of deep left buzzwords. By the end it’s become a meta argument that doesn’t even resemble anything approaching the original point. It was simply a waste of time and energy.
But it’s fun to watch, by Jobe!
Yeah. Well, kind of. One of the hallmarks of the people I think are getting a paycheck for it is that they don’t really seem to give a shit whether the stuff they are saying makes sense or is believable. They might go back and forth for a long time, but they don’t get invested in it, it’s just “here’s why we all think Kamala Harris is an asshole, obviously” and then on to the next comment.
Eh. This particular argument caused me to flee in alarm within the first few comments.
It did actually inspire me to look up whether a massive argument I had with one of the lemmy.ml people some time ago was Cowbee or not (if it had been, it would have been a key insight as to what made him tick). Alas, it was not. Sometimes I enjoy talking with these people (I think I actually have had some extended talks with Cowbee about Communism, which were fine), but this one I think both people were focused so much on minutiae that it quickly became unbearable.