The Israel Defense Forces releases surveillance camera footage from Shifa Hospital showing Hamas terrorists bringing a Nepali and Thai citizen who were abducted from Israel on October 7 to the medical center.
Again people lose sight of the fact that regardless of hamas actions, that doesn’t justify the killing of thousands of kids and families that are taking shelter in the hospital.
If anything, the medical staff and families are also hostages and they shouldn’t be killed either.
People kept arguing about the tunnel and the hospital ignoring the genocidal killing of Palestinians.
Tunnels or Hamas using the biggest and maybe only hospital Doesn’t justify the bombing of the hospital while people still getting treated from other bombing…
Let’s be accurate here. Thousands have died in Gaza as a result of this conflict, but Israel clearly did not kill thousands at Shifa Hospital.
You’re right, the hospital bombed itself.
they haven’t actually bombed al shifa, or any hospital for that matter.
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okay, can you link any evidence of hospitals being bombed?
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/gaza-attack-on-ambulance-outside-al-shifa-hospital/
Literally Doctors Without Borders explaining that an ambulance right outside the hospital was blasted during bombings.
I’ll remark the words of the other user:
Personally I would feel more shame about lying about the deaths of civilians.
Can you open any news article not written by the IDF?
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You are the liar, or just an idiot. Your own source doesn’t say anything about the hospital itself being bombed
The Israeli military’s repeated, apparently unlawful attacks on medical facilities, personnel, and transport
Hmm.
I mean, I read through what you posted and it literally never says Israel bombed hospitals.
HRW just cites a Tweet by “WHO in occupied Palestine” that is very non-specific while sounding specific.
The relevant bits from the Tweet used as the primary source by HRW:
“We are horrified at the latest reports of attacks on and in the vicinity of Al-Shifa Hospital, Al-Rantisi Naser Pediatric Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital, and others in Gaza city and northern Gaza, killing many, including children.”
“Over the past 36 days, WHO has recorded at least 137 attacks on health care in Gaza, resulting in 521 deaths and 686 injuries, including 16 deaths and 38 injuries of health workers on duty.”
If I thought I knew better from my seat in a chair what was going on in Gaza than the humanitarian organizations on the ground there then I would simply log off and touch grass.
I mean, when you are calling people liars because they don’t agree with you, especially when your own sources don’t support what you say, I’m pretty sure that’s a sign you need to log off and touch grass.
Is it possible Israel has bombed hospitals in Gaza? Certainly.
Did you provide proof? No.
Clearly the UNRWA and the doctors at MSF don’t know what they’re talking about. Only the IDF does.
Clearly you can’t even read or are mentally broken. The link above doesn’t say the hospital itself was bombed. Go to sleep, it must be late in the morning, tankie
Keep it civil. Removed.
Super cool how lying about hospitals not being bombed is “civil” but calling it out for the lie that it is somehow isn’t.
Attacking the contents of an article is absolutely allowed, attacking other users is absolutely NOT allowed.
So in your comment:
“Liar. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis”
That’s fine. “Liar” is maybe a little strong, I personally would have allowed it, other mods may not have. Your mileage may vary.
It was the personal attack against the other user AFTER that where you crossed the line and caused the comment to be removed.
I disagree that saying someone is ignorant or that I would STFU if I was that ignorant is a personal attack. I also do not see how that is somehow more objectionable than lying about bombed civilians.
It’s literally an ad hominem attack and is not allowed.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
You’ve also been warned about this before according to the modlog (which is public information):
https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&userId=82695
If you keep it up, you’re cruising for a temporary ban.
Can we yet dispense with the fiction that hamas is fighting some just war?
Hiding behind civilians and intentionally using their deaths as propaganda is terrible.
Also, free palestine, fuck hamas, fuck likud, fuck Iran, and fuck Russia.
I don’t think anyone is saying the war is just but rather relatable. If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
You’d sneak into their villages and go door to door killing thousands of innocent people in their homes? And do the same to young people at a music festival?
I think we can all relate to resistance, but this is something else.
The protagonists in the Old Testament do exactly that more than once with less provocation, and millions of people still consider them the good guys. Israel’s PM in particular has specifically cited one of them as a model to emulate. Look up his comment about Amalek.
So yes, a lot of people would do that, and the people in charge of this massacre in particular would definitely do that given a chance. Or, you know, you can look at the fact that they basically are doing that right now, just with bombs rather than small arms.
You know you’re on the moral high ground of relatability when your evidence comes from the fucking Old Testament. Like when your morality comes from 4000+ years ago, wow, that’s some good shit right there. Hold my beer, I’m about to say that I read slavery is ok in the Old Testament. Watch as I drive down to Whole Foods with a net gun and get myself some laborers from the produce isles. It’s ok because they wear multiple kinds of cloth at the same time, and I saw one pick up a lobster so he can definitely be my chattel. There goes one holding hands with his partner, give me a minute while I righteously smite them in the name of my lord; pour out some salt for them!
Man, you suck at reading comprehension. I’m using the Old Testament as an example of what people believe, not a source of factual information. You understand those are different things, right?
Dude you suck at reading comprehension because that’s exactly what I addressed in my comment. If one’s belief system is actually based in or otherwise aligned with the Old Testament, their opinion is invalid and they are morally bankrupt.
The Old Testament is so fucking brutal and devoid of morality, that 2000 years ago people started Christianity just to get away from its brutality; that was literally the appeal of jesus. To say “god did a take back and the world doesn’t have to be so brutal”.
You’d become a hardline religious extremist, torture your own people, and massacre civilians in cold blood?
Weird thing to admit to man.
I’m not religious so no, and I made no mention of religion. Israel was forged by hard-line religious extremists as well but is technically a secular nation.
You should look into every revolution on earth, 98% of which will include religious extremists. Your point is idiotic, the American revolution had religious extremists lol.
Hamas is explicitly a jihadist regime. Do you… not know that?
I do know that. I don’t think it matters the reason they’re fighting if it’s the same effect either way.
If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
???
You’re being tedious. You know what I meant and notably hamas is not the only dog in this fight buddy. The narrative is it’s hamas because they’re religious extremists and it tends to discount the fact that regardless of their intent or reasoning the effect is the save, armed defense of Gaza. Without hamas the place would have been annexed 30 years ago.
shows u have no clue what ur talking about. Israel wasn’t forged by religion extremists, on contrary. I will never understand people like u who talk with such confidence about matters they have no clue about.
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nice personal attack, maybe because facts are not at your side? fake news, half truths, and propoganda is all I get from u. good luck with that I’m out
I didn’t personally attack you, stop crying.
Where is Gaza’s military allowed to be?
Certainly not at Israeli music festivals
Well, what was “Gaza’s military” doing outside of Gaza committing torture, rape, infanticide and murder on 1,200 civilians?
How many Gaza civilians does Israel get to kill in retaliation?
100? 1000? 2000? 5000? 10,000? We’re still not at the actual number that have been killed just since Oct 7th, by the way. If killing 1200 Israelis is bad why is killing 15,000 Palestinians just shit that happens that everyone should just get over?
cuz idf isn’t going out of their way to kill civilians. else they would’ve levelled gaza instantly.
They would lose the international community immediately if they did that. It’s amazing how many morons copy paste this opinion as if Israel can level an entire country with no consequences.
You’re just lying. Not even Israel claims Hamas killed 1200 civilians. That number includes active duty military and police.
Trying to break the walls of their open air prison thats killing everyone inside.
And bear in mind the reports of torture and rape are just accusations from an occupying military.
Which open air prison are you talking about?
The restrictions taken in place by Egypt and Israel were inevitable due to the presence of terrorist groups and the complete radicalization of the country. Many tend to blame Israel for the situation in Gaza but if the population there were peace-loving individuals, they definitely wouldn’t have so bad relationships with Egypt.
If they were peace loving they would have been killed off long ago like the hundreds of thousands of palestinians Israel drove out in the name of their religion.
The radical religious terrorist group is Israel
Hamas built that prison, when they tried to overthrow the Jordanian and Egyptian governments while also calling for the genocide of Israel.
There’s a reason people are stuck in Gaza and that reason is entirely Hamas.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/
Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: Israel
Press Freedom Rank: MODERATE FREEDOM
Media Type: Website
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY
This needs to be a bot, this is great context around the media outlets.
It’s really not. MBFC is run by a single guy. It’s methodology is basically worthless. It’s basically one dude’s opinion on what news sources he likes to read.
What do we know about that guy? Not much. He happens to share the same name as a very prominent lawyer/professor, which makes finding details about him very challenging.
Quit spreading FUD. It’s not just one guy, the founder has a whole team listed on the website and a clear methodology. It’s in the about section.
You’re just salty because the website isn’t super pro Chinese Communist Party.
Have you looked at their methodology? It wouldn’t pass a basic university-level writing course.
So a whopping 2 hostages on the day of the attack, of which one was critically injured, which was more than a month ago.
Definitely Hamas HQ confirmed. Was worth all that civilian collateral to capture.
At least they finally got some footage so we don’t have to rely on some crappy IDF PS1 graphics renders.
There are more than two hostages. They’ve already found one of the previous hostages dead near the hospital grounds.
Wait until more footage comes through
A dead person near a hospital?!? Say it ain’t so doc, people can’t die at hospitals of all places. Everyone knows Dairy Queen is the place to take a hostage for medical care.
That person was one of the hostages. don’t you find that a little suspicious that one of the hostages was found dead outside the hospital grounds?
If a hostage is injured where would you take them? The supermarket? There’s a lot of odd shit going on but injured people taken to the hospital is not it.
They drove past multiple hospitals to get to this one because this one is where their main tunnel base was.
Much smaller ones without trauma wards on the same par. They’ve been fighting a war with Israel for decades, they know which hospitals are the best and which ones have Israeli sympathizers as well. Why exactly they chose that hospital we do not know but what we can say is so far the evidence of a centre of gravity are extremely weak.
Ed: similarly they’ve shown one unbooby trapped, unguarded tunnel without tons of boot prints. And moreover the video is not off anything being cleared and has it’s location removed.
They’ve been fighting a war with Israel for decades, they know which hospitals are the best
They know which ones have the best access to their tunnel network.
It’s hilarious you’re trying to suggest they were taking people to the hospital altruisticly. That’s so far from reality it’s not even worth an argument.
i generally also drive past hospitals that dont deal with detached legs when my leg is detached
I generally
… How often does your leg detatch?
thats funny, i was under the impression that ‘outside hospital grounds’ distinctly does not mean ‘on hospital grounds’
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Removed for intentional spread of misinformation.
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital. “These findings prove that the Hamas terror organization used Shifa Hospital on the day of the massacre itself as terror infrastructure,” the IDF says.
TIL bringing a wounded civilian in for treatment makes the treating hospital “terror infrastructure”.
Further images released by the IDF from the surveillance cameras at Shifa show Hamas terrorists inside the hospital, and outside the rooms of the hostages, as well as stolen IDF vehicles brought to the medical center.
It wasn’t a wounded person that was the problem.
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
You’re going to just disagree with the IDF spokesman here?
Okay, let’s say you’re a cop and you have an injured prisoner but no car. You grab a vehicle off the street and bring the guy to the nearest hospital. You don’t want your prisoner to escape, so you stand guard outside the room while he’s getting treated, then take him into custody.
You see the problem here? In one viewpoint, it’s a soldier responsibly getting treatment for a prisoner; in another viewpoint, the entire hospital complex had enemy soldiers in it at some time and therefore deserves to be razed to the ground.
The wounded guy? Sure thing. But the other one didn’t seem to be too injured to be taken to a hospital for treatment
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
They were both wounded
If you take two prisoners and don’t want to split up your forces, then you bring both of them to the hospital, get the injured one treated, and take both of them away.
Dude’s never broken a bone and it shows
IDF says on Time of Israel… yeah I’ll wait a third independent agency to confirm that. They have been trying to push some very ridicolous shit recently, they really have no shame.
The third link is to an Amnesty article from 2015
“White house says” don’t you ever link that under the heading of proof again. The US is Israel’s bitch and the White House has lied for war before, that hospital could have Saddam’s WMDs for all we know.
That said the other sources are somewhat reputable but the content doesn’t relate to the hospital.
wuh? they specifically mention the hospital, ha
They specifically refer back the Israel and IDF statements. 2 I can’t read and 1 is from the white house who should not be trusted when it comes for giving cause for war crimes in the middle East.
Notably the Guardian points out there is little in way of independent evidence outside of anecdotal evidence. They also pointed out given the conditions on the ground there and the density of the population being bombed that military presence may not be indicative of anything other than circumstance and doesn’t necessitate a command and control center.
A statement by the IDF is not proof. If your source is simply quoting the people you are trying to provide a source for, that is not a source.
Headline: IDF claims x. You: here’s a source, this website independently verified that the IDF did in fact say X.
You see the issue here, right?
Yea, I will wait till islamicjihad.com, mujahideen.net and taliban.org release their articles!
If only impartial middle ground existed.
Which one? Name them 😌
Maybe time of Israel and Hamas Daily Journal aren’t where you should go for impartiality during a conflict between Israel and Hamas.
Name them. 👻 All barking no a single name
Peoples World and CGTN
The IDF’s lying track record is bad.
The dumbest part is that it says one hostage was brought to the hospital to be killed.
Bro just kill her in whatever tunnel you’re in… Why drag her to the hospital?
It has been said, they brought them to treat them for injuries
Hmmm pretty sure the IDF officially made that statement
You trust the IDF after they’ve lied so many times?
🤣
So that argument was used as a reason to attack them the next day. What about the other 40 days since?
You see, the problem is that you’re trying to apply logic and reasoning.
If they’re releasing surveillance footage, expect more to come out. They have already announced that Noa Marciano was executed inside the hospital - most likely on camera.
Also note that they are sharing much more with the US and EU than they are making public. It will likely include surveillance footage tagged with facial recognition of every senior Hamas member who walked through the hospital.
well this community suddenly became very quiet.
Israel’s right wing is a bunch of genocidal monsters who are just as evil as Hamas but much better funded.
Happy now?
So collateral damage is just as bad as putting a baby inside an oven?
You said that, not me.
It really hasn’t, it’s generic un geolocated video yet again and Israel is known to fake video. At the same time it’s not at all proof of their nonsense claims.
Fake news!
I mean no, it’s an unsubstantiated claim.
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Removed, rule 5. Don’t attack the other user.
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i’m arguing in good faith
Sure.
I’m supplying reputable sources with my claims. You still owe me one for the whole “bombing hospitals” thing you said tho! :3
No i don’t lol.
uh-huh~ and your proof?
What proof?
of your claims that they bombed hospitals
Waiting on their bosses for the right propaganda response
the hostages were in the hospital that got bombed?
I hope they’re okay…
Yes, they were trying to free them, obviously.
Is this according to the same Israel that called a water reservoir an “opening into the Hamas tunnels?”
The same one that released a faked video of a “nurse from al-Shifa?”
To be fair, Al Jazeera is blatantly anti-Israel, so I wouldn’t trust their analysis without other corroborating sources. Regardless, the evidence the IDF presented for that particular video was far from conclusive, so it’s certainly possible that particular entrance wasn’t to the Hamas tunnel network.
I also don’t doubt that nurse video is fake, but the source of the video is far from definitive. Many parties in this conflict benefit from muddling the waters with fake videos.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind? If the facts are valid, they’re valid regardless of what the spin being put on them is.
Gee, I sure wonder why Al Jazeera would be anti-Israel…
Bias needs to be taken into account, but it does not invalidate good reporting on its own. It’s the same reason I don’t immediately believe all statements from the IDF. They are a party in the conflict and extremely biased.
They are however a valuable source of information and their claims should be considered. I would also rank the credibility of the IDF over the credibility of Hamas.
Other comment got reported, but still doesn’t change the fact that you’re comparing two bad sources and trying to pick one that’s less bad.
If Hamas starts releasing verifiably false videos to Western audiences, then I’ll discredit that too.
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You don’t have to look far for fake Hamas videos. Are you kidding? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120978
Hamas bombed their own hospital and then said the IDF did it and everyone ate it up
Saying you blindly believe Hamas, a known terrorist organization that says that all Jews worldwide should be wiped out, is really taking the mask off. You should be ashamed of yourself. It’s fine to assume Israel lies, but to blindly trust Hamas is truly moronic. I hope you wake up to reality one day
Not a great example. All recent reporting was that the hospital you’re talking about was hit by a Hezbollah rocket, not Hamas. Not surprising that Hamas would assume, after concluding it wasn’t them, that it was the IDF, and it not be an outright lie.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind?
Actually yes, that’s exactly what they’ve done time and time again.
How, when?
Well the most obvious example is the strike on that hospital killing 500 that ended up being a failed PIJ rocket landing on the hospital parking lot killing 10-20 people.
As far as I’m aware there is no conclusive evidence that it was a PIJ rocket. You can only really believe that if you actually trust the IDF.
You rather believe Hamas that it was an Israeli rocket when all available evidence verified by multiple governments claims to the contrary?
I’m honestly confused because the original article just says Hamas was seen taking one of the hostages to the hospital. Isn’t that a good thing like hey they are trying to make sure these people don’t die?
If there is a Hamas bunker under a hospital it was built with the full knowledge and support of netenyahu.
Yeah . Because Hamas apparently were treating prisoners humanely.
I can see why humane treatment of prisoners and outsiders can seem crazy to some countries, but it is a rule of war.
Aw hell, just add it to the list of ignored rules.
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… who are then taken … say it with me … prisoner.
Yeah, to us they’re hostages, sure. But if every citizen of the other nation happens to be a reservist after their gap year of service, they’re unarmed ‘enemy’ soldiers on extended leave.
I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle and can’t be so simply decided on the outside by people who sleep soundly at night.
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So then they shouldn’t be given medical care?
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The Iranian propaganda teams aren’t sure what to say yet. They must be sweating now. I’m guessing some whataboutism as counter
Hah apparently the spin is they were taken to the hospital for humanitarian reasons. After all the rape and murder the kidnappers decided to take their hostages to the hospital for treatment clearly under duress. Yep such nice guys. Definitely what they’d do.
