this is a dumb post.
It’s interesting that in the military that is largely flipped. There’s pages of rules for what facial hair is allowed, how long it can be, how far past the corner of the mouth it can be, the length of both individual hairs as well as bulk and where hair can be, one specific uniform for each occasion, nail length (kept short) with no color, and all manner of other things.
On the women’s side, they get a wide variety of hairstyles (including any and all that men have), longer nails allowed, multiple shirt, pant/skirt, and shoe options for formal wear, and the rules are generally less rigidly followed.
The amount of men butthurt by the difference in standards is hilarious. It’s like “oh, first time?” I guarantee they didn’t make a fuss when their high school didn’t allow spaghetti straps.
Although I have to say it doesn’t make sense there either. Either short hair is necessary, than everybody should have it. Or it isn’t. Gendered hair styles are stupid.
Shorts over bathing suits is such a weird one to me. Like… Bathing suit is fine in the water, going in to the water, getting out of the water. But you best cover that shit up for lake activities or whatever. Like what a weird line to draw.
Edit: You know what? These are all really weird. Like… No white t shirts? Are you afraid of them getting wet and maybe revealing the bathing suit they are probably wearing underneath? No two peice bathing suit? Because heaven forbid you show off the most sexual part of the body - the stomach? Like… That’s the difference between a one peice and a two piece, right? The stomach? The back? Maybe it’s to reduce the chance of a “wardrobe malfunction”?
I dont know.
The funny things about the boys rules is that they mostly boil down to “don’t let us catch you looking too much like a girl” but also “don’t let us catch you looking too much like an adult man, either”
No long hair. But also no facial hair.
No piercings. No visible tattoos. Nothing that might look like a weapon (including combs, heavy shoes, and tshirts with pictures of guns on them).
No eyeliner or hairspray or jewelry. Nothing too punk but also nothing too fruity. Absolutely nothing that might be scary looking. Or drug affiliated. Or queer.
Heaven fucking help you if you look queer. Summer camps hate that.
Mens fashion is all about compliance with the uniform
The only thing worse than looking LGB is looking T+ heaven forbid your gender identity doesn’t fit the binary you were assigned at birth
When I was young, the boys’ public school dress code did exclude sleeveless shirts, the girls’ did not. Boys’ dress code excluded skirts, girls’ did not. Nobody could have short shorts.
Church camp, well it’s Florida, everyone wore swimsuits to swim, there was no mention of modesty about that, because swimwear is appropriate attire for swimming.
Nothing that might look like a weapon
Am I too european to understand that?
Also, why would you stop boys from wearing colorful sarongs, surfer mustache and stylish earrings? Isn‘t that what a summer camp should be about?
Am I too european to understand that?
It’s about on par with the UK obsession over Knife Crime.
Isn‘t that what a summer camp should be about?
Summer camp is about putting the kids somewhere cheap so you can keep doing your day job uninterrupted.
it’s a conservative christian thing to ban much of that stuff but I imagine the person you are commenting on probably thought it matched the tone of the original post
As someone who was abused, it’s always the girl’s fault. Just existing is enough. This is especially reinforced in Christian and camp circles, because one of the first stories you learn is all sin started with Eve, and women are why we’re all damned.
Men are tempted, women are tempters – that’s how it’s always been.
This just reminded me of the “self-defense training for girls” we had in 8th or 9th grade. It boiled down to “Every man potentially wants to hurt you.” Someone walking behind you? Turn around and yell at them to stop it. A man standing too close to you? Yell “Back off”.
Of course the situations were all mundane and it was pretty clear you couldn’t just yell at or confront any man that comes within ~3 meters of you. So all that “training” did was give me the uneasy feeling that if something happened, it would be my fault. I didn’t preemptively yell at the man within the first few seconds of seeing him.
Exactly! This is why females need to be modest! Besides, the bathing suits from over 100 years ago were a lot more modest than they are now. :-(
I just love wearing a wool full-body suit in the water. That wet sock feeling all over my body, down to my calves, is just chef’s kiss.
Boys also aren’t allowed to wear bikinis, and their swimsuits are (usually) shorts already.
No white Tees is BS though.
However, without context, I would hazard a guess that the summer camp has a religious affiliation (most do). My YMCA affiliated summer camp required that all campers attend chapel on Sunday. I “learned” the “hard way” that not participating at chapel was “punished” by being sent to the cafeteria to play games and eat extra breakfast with the non-christian staffers.
“punished” by being sent to the cafeteria to play games and eat extra breakfast with the non-christian staffers
Makes perfect sense! I want to know what their logic is behind this. I imagine it’s a mixture of prejudice and plain stupid.
It is the “Young Man’s Christian Association” after all
Aka the OG Grindr
I would bet that if tight speedos came back into fashion there would be a rule against boys wearing those.
There’s definitely an element of society telling women and girls what to do with their bodies. But, there’s also an element of women/girls wanting to wear very revealing clothing, and boys/men wanting to wear less revealing clothing. Male swimwear is mostly shorts these days, at least in North America, for women it’s a lot more revealing. Male office wear is suits, or at least button down shirts that are buttoned to the top. For women it’s often a top with cleavage or at least upper chest showing, even in businesswear. A woman who wears a male-style shirt that covers up everything below the neck is pretty unusual. Then there’s the legs. A woman wearing a skirt is seen as completely normal in a “business wear” office, but a man wearing shorts is most definitely not.
But, there’s also an element of women/girls wanting to wear very revealing clothing, and boys/men wanting to wear less revealing clothing.
The boys are literally going topless.
When swimming, sure. In the office, not so much. Boys/men cover up much more than women do in the office.
Right. I was bringing it back to the topic being discussed.
This is a horse/cart situation and basing your logic and reasoning on cultural norms makes for an incredibly fragile foundation.
Women want to wear more revealing clothing because society tells them that that’s what women are expected to wear and vice versa for men. The entirety of “business wear” is a paradigm created over a century ago when men were considered professionals and women were considered hired help at best and office decorations at worst. The word “scientist” was coined to describe a woman with a degree in science because the term up until then, man of science, didn’t apply and they couldn’t just call her a “doctor of x” because she held 3 doctorates in different fields. When the Romans first invaded Britain, they mocked the English for wearing pants, something that only women wore in Italy. Right up until the first chill breeze went up their skirts, then pants were suddenly incredibly manly.
Speaking of pants, have you ever looked at women’s pants? Pockets are a rarity because they mess up the clean lines and form of the hips. That’s not something women choose. Ask any woman and I bet she’ll have plenty to say about the lack of pockets in women’s clothing, and none of it will be good. A pair of good pants with pockets is a jealously guarded treasure to be well cared for lest they wear out. Clothes designers care more about the form of women('s clothes) than the function.
I bet you if speedos made a comeback, the fuss would be from older men saying that they looked gay or feminine.
Women do talk a lot about the lack of pants in pockets, but they don’t actually seem to buy pants with pockets.
This is a perfect example of revealed preferences. Pants with pockets are out there for sale. They’re not even rare. Especially in the modern world where you can order clothing online, it’s easy to find and buy just about anything you want. Women could exclusively buy pants with pockets, but they don’t. Why not? Probably because pockets are important, but when it comes right down to it, pockets aren’t as important as other things like fit, style and price.
I’ll definitely agree that the major fashion houses might refuse to make pants with pockets. For them fashion is the only thing that matters. In fact, they’d probably only add a pocket if they could justify as a part of the style. And, there are going to be other designers who just copy the major fashion houses, maybe with minor modifications. But, they might not put in pockets because they’re trying to copy the major designer.
But, do a web search for “women’s pants with pockets” and tell me if you don’t find all kinds of results.
As for societal norms, I completely agree that the current world is one where women are expected to be pretty and men aren’t. That wasn’t the case in the 1700s where men wore makeup, tights and high heels. But, in the current world, it is women who society expects to make themselves look pretty, where that’s not expected of men.
Are they useful pockets? One of the problems I hear is the pockets are so small.
As once a boy & now a man. It’s simple. Be embarrassed. This applies to any form of sexuality or gender.
I’ve been fit for my entire life and wished it wouldn’t be weird for me to wear a T-shirt while swimming.
There’s always more than two sides. That’s why I don’t flip coins, I roll dice.
Wear a sun shirt, and then when people ask just say “it’s better for my skin” and then drop that mic.
A surfer / rash guard shirt is pretty cool. I have no issues with showing my body, but it just reduces sunburn risk by a lot and lets you stay in cold-ish water longer. Really, no reason not to wear one.
Just in case the President of the United States wanders into camp.
POTUS. Paedo Of The United States.
PEDUS
You just gave me the perfect title for my Dr. Seuss style kids history book about the Trump regime.
POTUS PEDUS DIABEETUS
Given his track record of he did the opposite rules would be mandatory
American prudishness is weird as fuck.
Europe did ship off their most extreme Christian sects to here
But also all their radicals and revolutionaries and criminals.
You can thank our psychotic Evangelical Christians. Bunch of pseudo-puritan nutjobs. They have no issues sinning, but want to make sure that no one else can.
A lot of the anti-abortion folks have had abortions. A lot of the anti-gay folks, have a gay sidepiece or have engaged in sexual acts with someone of the same sex. A lot of the folks that are anti-drug are some of the biggest drug offenders.
Like, at what point do Christians wake up and go, wow, these people are absolutely scum…why am I associating with them?
I despise all forms of religion, by there’s evidence the evangelicals are just claiming something that isn’t theirs.
Hmm, sounds like yet another similarity to Nazis.
Maybe if we didn’t divide people by sex and assign gender norms from birth we would learn how to interact before puberty without sexual objectification. It would make navigating teenage years a lot easier if we started than with a gender/sex diverse social group opposed to the current default being through the lens of objectification.
we would learn how to interact before puberty without sexual objectification.
Most kids do if you leave them alone. It’s the adults that have them problems with it. I had zero interest in sex until at least 15 at the earliest. Adults are the problem, as per usual.
That’s interesting, I remember thinking teachers classmates moms were hot when I was in kindergarten and 1st grade. I didn’t really know what to do with that feeling but it was definitely there.
As someone who hit puberty at 8 and had a shitty mustache at 11 I concur. But it is probably highly variable based off of biology, like I was jacking off like a spider monkey way too early by most peoples standards. Weirdly enough I am aromantic legit don’t get the appeal, meanwhile I’ve got a libido that put a cat in heat to shame.
Stop shaming cats in heat! They can’t help it!
Weirdly enough I am aromantic legit don’t get the appeal, meanwhile I’ve got a libido that put a cat in heat to shame.
Wow same.
Agreed and yeah that’s the point.
Not being comfortable socially with girls/women and being force-fed masculinity made my life and the life of women around me so much more difficult in my teens/early adulthood. Social skills are so much harder to develop, and cognitive biases so much harder to correct as an adult.
I’m 54. Still zero interest in sex. I can’t fathom why people have to be so obsessed with it, because life is fine without it, but that’s probably just me.
I can’t fathom why people have to be so obsessed with it
Literally just hormones. I can’t explain horniness better than… idk, sleepiness? Hungriness?
Trying to explain to a horny person not to think about sex is a bit like trying to explain to an itchy person not to think about scratching.
And, a lot like with itching, once you’ve done it the urge only gets worse. Losing your virginity is like opening up an emotional floodgate. Once you’ve experienced it, you’re a soppy emotional mess just pining for the next opportunity.
life is fine without it
Man Who Hasn’t Just Downed a Full Pot of Coffee: “You keep squeezing your legs shut and looking for a toilet. Why don’t you just calm down?”
I didn’t mean people shouldn’t be that way, only that I can’t personally fathom it.
I also can’t personally fathom why some people are obsessed with food. I don’t mean they’re wrong, just that I can’t understand their POV. Like I get they feel that way, and it’s not wrong, it’s just outside my reckoning. Like I eat enough to live, and I don’t obsess over it. That’s foreign to me, thinking about food 24/7 even when you’re not hungry.
E: just ruminating here, not judging. I’m sharing and want other people to share. I’m not great at sharing without offending people, sorry.
I also can’t personally fathom why some people are obsessed with food
That seems fairly straightforward.
For me? no. I can’t imagine thinking about anything that much. Like, to the exclusion of other things, I mean. Or, focussed on one thing (other then nothing – I can turn everything off, but throttling is very hard).
I know we don’t all think this way, but being that passionate without control is kinda foreign to me.
being that passionate without control
That’s just brain development. Psychological control is as muscle you build as a bicep or a glut. And it’s muscle that can be exhausted or atrophied over time.
I would have killed to not have been obsessed with sex from 18-35. Now that I’m nearly 50 it’s finally calmed down. What a pain that was - I wonder if I could have gotten medication for it. Is that a thing?
Oh yeah. They chemically castrated Turing with meds that just didn’t make him horny anymore, and he killed himself because of it. That wasn’t by choice, though.
It must have done something more than turn the horny off… Why would not being horny make you suicidal? Doesn’t make sense
It makes total sense to me! As someone who was extremely horny growing up and isn’t really anymore, losing that part of me at that time would have been DEVASTATING. That is maybe the worst thing that could have happened to me. I don’t care as much anymore, but when I did, I would have killed myself as well.
But if you’re made to not miss it why would you be depressed. That’s like not being hungry anymore and being sad you don’t want to eat.
Probably hormonal, so yeah. I’ve always been too low on the spectrum, and there’s a healthy balance. If it was disruptive for you, you may have been off-balance the other way. I’m not a doctor though, so…
Maybe if we didn’t divide people by sex and assign gender norms from birth we would learn how to interact before puberty without sexual objectification.
Part of the problem with teenagers - particularly young teenagers - is that they’re very self-obsessed and mood driven. Like, it’s easy to say “just raise your kids better” when you’re not deal with the bubbling caldron of hormones kettled inside a head that literally physically hasn’t fully developed the faculties to process the emotions.
That’s not to defend gender norms. But it’s certainly easier to go with the “Lord of the Flies” flow than it is to bend the tidal force that is clichish, selfish, horny, and often violent teenage base tendencies.
It would make navigating teenage years a lot easier if we started than with a gender/sex diverse social group
It’s helpful when teenagers have a group they can empathize with at an early age. But that doesn’t work at a summer camp full of people who haven’t met before.
Kids routinely can and do self-segregate along age and appearance and behavior. It takes a lot of human labor to undo the natural impulses of young kids.
And that means hiring more people, which costs more money, which cuts into the profit of the camp owners.
We definitely make it hard on parents. I’m making no conjecture on such a societal difference would impact parental workloads. That’s another conversation worth having though.
That said, i think it should be pretty easy not to tease or shame children for being friends with the other sex. And gender neutral clothing costs the same as gendered clothing so 🤷
That said, i think it should be pretty easy not to tease or shame children for being friends with the other sex.
I think a lot of parents of young girls are terrified that their kids will be attacked by young boys. So they cloister them deliberately.
A lot of parents of young boys are terrified that they’ll turn out gay. So they pressure them to be toxically masculine.
And gender neutral clothing costs the same as gendered clothing
They’re significantly cheaper, by and large. But by the time you’re dealing with teenagers, they’re largely dressing themselves.
Try to explain to a 15 year old that he shouldn’t be emulating hyper-masculine/feminine media personalities.
Parents biases/behaviors impact their children for sure!
Again, I’m talking about how the teenage years can benefit from a different approach in earlier childhood than traditional norms. Teens are learning to be adults, they need autonomy and space to explore themselves. I only commented that they have the capacity to understand consent.
E.g. a 6yo doesn’t benefit from being dressed in pink or robin egg blue, and children pick up on this stuff even if unconsciously because the rest of society reacts to it.
But that’s logical! /j
While it would definitely help, the truth is kids brains are a hormonal mess. No matter what and how well we teach 'em, there comes a ‘breaking point’ where the chemical imbalance will override any ‘training’
While double standards absolutely suck and should be eliminated wherever possible I think it’s totally fair to have rules like this for kids (at least for now)
Just because my 13 year old brain knew 'girls are people too doesnt mean my 13 year old hormones cared about that when saying ‘I like this’
This is not something that can be fixed overnight or in a single generation. And it will never be fixed 100%.
I can pretty much guarantee that even in the remote villages where toplessness is a normal part of everyday life there are still the ‘oddballs’ who love boobs and sexualize them.
Besides what the other person said, it’s much deeper than “boobs = sexy.” It’s a culture that blames young girls for boys and grown men finding them sexually attractive. Even in your “oddballs” example, we don’t ban people from going barefoot because some people are into feet (probably the most common fetish in the world thanks to biology). If people have a problem with that, it’s their problem, not the person that they’re objectifying.
I agree that it’s not a quick fix, but it starts with teaching boys to have some simple self control and basic empathy and not making the girls shoulder all the responsibility of boys being horny. But that also starts long before you ever get to a summer camp, and that’s also an important part of the topic. Like I said, it’s a deeply rooted cultural issue.
Never said there was an overnight or one-stop fix.
I’m suggesting that with children developing socially together throughout childhood without being forced to conform to pink and blue norms we would be a lot better off navigating the social challenges we face during sexual development.
That opposed to the experience we had in my youth of peeking over the proverbial wall staring into the garden at what we had been told our whole lives were strange creatures that bore sex as their primary purpose rather than being people who had the same human experiences and emotions as us.
Also i disagree with your sentiment about training and breaking points. Children can easily understand consent. They do, however, need mentors facilitating an environment safe enough they can talk through feelings.
E: rewording some stuff to avoid binaries, assigning genders, etc
This is for a kids summer camp? Who is the no white T-shirt rule for, the camp staff?
It’s for the pubescent kids. Why wouldn’t it be?
Can’t be tempting the paedos that run the place, can we?
Here we go again, women and girls being responsible for how men and boys behave.
that’s a good way to put it, it’s victim blaming in a way
It’s quite literally victim blaming. Blaming girls for boys and even adult men from being unable to stop themselves from sexually assaulting them.
i’d react the same way cuz i hate unequal gender division.
if they tell her she has to wear something different they should also tell boys to wear something different.
i hope it bothers her also when rules are unequal against males too. If so, good daughter. Smite those gender divisions.
I mean, i think if one of the boys tried to wear a bikini theyd tell him to wear something different too.
the scary thing is that those rules were probably put in place because of the grown up councillors 🤢
No rules about femboys though? I see a loophole here.
I don’t think Linux devs go to summer camps…
Maybe don’t refer to femboys when talking about 12 year olds?
Being a femboy isn’t inherently sexual.
Well fuck, when you’re right you’re right.
Just kind of a gut reaction, as that’s how the world treats them, but that’s not really fair.
<3
Americans when they learn that cross-dressing isn’t considered adult only in other places. Sure you have RuPaul’s drag race which is very sexualised, but that isn’t the only type of cross-dressing that exists.
Also the rules listed are actually sexualising girls. I would rather mock the rules instead. The femboys are not the problem here.
Honestly, I blame the history of the word and its relation to slurs for trans women. Femboy, trap, and multiple others started as words to describe trans women as actually just being a gay man trying to trick straight men into having sex with them by pretending to be a woman.
I’m glad to see that they’ve evolved beyond that into a very fun way for men to play and express themselves outside of the arbitrary gender binary, but I totally understand the gut reaction of basically “femboy = twink with extra steps.”
Genuinely wonder how they’d react to a boy showing up in a two-piece like some kind of gacha femboy.
Like similar to a girls’ two piece? A speedo and crop top? I bet there’d be a new rule next year.
Just normal trunks and a swim shirt? Probably nothing said at all. Though to be fair I bet if a girl showed up in swim trunks and a swim shirt not a word would be said either, but I could be wrong on that.
