I would bet that if tight speedos came back into fashion there would be a rule against boys wearing those.
There’s definitely an element of society telling women and girls what to do with their bodies. But, there’s also an element of women/girls wanting to wear very revealing clothing, and boys/men wanting to wear less revealing clothing. Male swimwear is mostly shorts these days, at least in North America, for women it’s a lot more revealing. Male office wear is suits, or at least button down shirts that are buttoned to the top. For women it’s often a top with cleavage or at least upper chest showing, even in businesswear. A woman who wears a male-style shirt that covers up everything below the neck is pretty unusual. Then there’s the legs. A woman wearing a skirt is seen as completely normal in a “business wear” office, but a man wearing shorts is most definitely not.
This is a horse/cart situation and basing your logic and reasoning on cultural norms makes for an incredibly fragile foundation.
Women want to wear more revealing clothing because society tells them that that’s what women are expected to wear and vice versa for men. The entirety of “business wear” is a paradigm created over a century ago when men were considered professionals and women were considered hired help at best and office decorations at worst. The word “scientist” was coined to describe a woman with a degree in science because the term up until then, man of science, didn’t apply and they couldn’t just call her a “doctor of x” because she held 3 doctorates in different fields. When the Romans first invaded Britain, they mocked the English for wearing pants, something that only women wore in Italy. Right up until the first chill breeze went up their skirts, then pants were suddenly incredibly manly.
Speaking of pants, have you ever looked at women’s pants? Pockets are a rarity because they mess up the clean lines and form of the hips. That’s not something women choose. Ask any woman and I bet she’ll have plenty to say about the lack of pockets in women’s clothing, and none of it will be good. A pair of good pants with pockets is a jealously guarded treasure to be well cared for lest they wear out. Clothes designers care more about the form of women('s clothes) than the function.
I bet you if speedos made a comeback, the fuss would be from older men saying that they looked gay or feminine.
Women do talk a lot about the lack of pants in pockets, but they don’t actually seem to buy pants with pockets.
This is a perfect example of revealed preferences. Pants with pockets are out there for sale. They’re not even rare. Especially in the modern world where you can order clothing online, it’s easy to find and buy just about anything you want. Women could exclusively buy pants with pockets, but they don’t. Why not? Probably because pockets are important, but when it comes right down to it, pockets aren’t as important as other things like fit, style and price.
I’ll definitely agree that the major fashion houses might refuse to make pants with pockets. For them fashion is the only thing that matters. In fact, they’d probably only add a pocket if they could justify as a part of the style. And, there are going to be other designers who just copy the major fashion houses, maybe with minor modifications. But, they might not put in pockets because they’re trying to copy the major designer.
But, do a web search for “women’s pants with pockets” and tell me if you don’t find all kinds of results.
As for societal norms, I completely agree that the current world is one where women are expected to be pretty and men aren’t. That wasn’t the case in the 1700s where men wore makeup, tights and high heels. But, in the current world, it is women who society expects to make themselves look pretty, where that’s not expected of men.
I work with a lot of women and I also have a sister. All of them will complain about pockets being too small, but all of them also wear form fitting clothes that were clearly built to appeal to a fashion sense, rather than a practical one. Even the more practical oriented women amongst them opt for something that looks nice, but isn’t the most practical it could be
But here’s the thing. I’m not telling them what to wear. In fact, every woman is free to shop in the men’s section or to choose pants with actual pocket from the women’s section. You can buy CARGO PANTS. You are legally allowed to do so as a woman. The patriarchy is not stopping you.
Whenever the pockets thing comes up, I love to show them what I’m carrying. XL size phone, large wallet, Airpods, knife, keys… I can literally stick a Nintendo Switch in my pants pocket. And those are just casual jeans. If I had cargo pants, I could carry a backpack’s worth of gear.
So why don’t women do that? They literally have a term for ‘boyfriend jeans’ but refuse to wear something actually practical because it’s not as feminine. I imagine they don’t want comments from other women, because I as a guy am utterly delighted to see a woman wear something practical.
There’s a woman in my family who’s in her 70s now, and she exclusively wears pants or shorts with pockets. She doesn’t care at all about style anymore, she’s all about the cargo pants / cargo shorts. Her husband also wears cargo pants / shorts, and is probably the one who converted her. He’s just happy she can carry her own stuff now and doesn’t need to bug him.
But, it was a big deal for her. She was never a very style-conscious person. However, she was raised in a different time, and she wore clothes to fit in, which mostly meant typical women’s pants without useful pockets. Now, she’s happy to tell people how great it is to have big pockets and how liberating it is not to care what other people think of her fashion choices.
I get it. Even though I also don’t much care what fashion says, I still feel a bit constrained. There are hot summer days where I think a skirt would probably feel great. But, skirts on guys aren’t even vaguely acceptable, and even variations on a skirt like a kilt are highly suspect. I’m not so bothered by it that I feel up to challenging the norms and wearing a skirt. If some other guy were to push the boundaries and wear a skirt, I’d fully support him because I want that freedom too, but I’m not willing to put up with the intense pressure it would cause me. Similarly, when a woman does wear clothes that emphasize utility over fashion, I’m hugely supportive. I also think pocketless pants are dumb.
I honestly think that it’s probably mostly women who are holding women back when it comes to pockets. Most guys probably mostly don’t notice or don’t care.
I would bet that if tight speedos came back into fashion there would be a rule against boys wearing those.
There’s definitely an element of society telling women and girls what to do with their bodies. But, there’s also an element of women/girls wanting to wear very revealing clothing, and boys/men wanting to wear less revealing clothing. Male swimwear is mostly shorts these days, at least in North America, for women it’s a lot more revealing. Male office wear is suits, or at least button down shirts that are buttoned to the top. For women it’s often a top with cleavage or at least upper chest showing, even in businesswear. A woman who wears a male-style shirt that covers up everything below the neck is pretty unusual. Then there’s the legs. A woman wearing a skirt is seen as completely normal in a “business wear” office, but a man wearing shorts is most definitely not.
The boys are literally going topless.
When swimming, sure. In the office, not so much. Boys/men cover up much more than women do in the office.
Right. I was bringing it back to the topic being discussed.
This is a horse/cart situation and basing your logic and reasoning on cultural norms makes for an incredibly fragile foundation.
Women want to wear more revealing clothing because society tells them that that’s what women are expected to wear and vice versa for men. The entirety of “business wear” is a paradigm created over a century ago when men were considered professionals and women were considered hired help at best and office decorations at worst. The word “scientist” was coined to describe a woman with a degree in science because the term up until then, man of science, didn’t apply and they couldn’t just call her a “doctor of x” because she held 3 doctorates in different fields. When the Romans first invaded Britain, they mocked the English for wearing pants, something that only women wore in Italy. Right up until the first chill breeze went up their skirts, then pants were suddenly incredibly manly.
Speaking of pants, have you ever looked at women’s pants? Pockets are a rarity because they mess up the clean lines and form of the hips. That’s not something women choose. Ask any woman and I bet she’ll have plenty to say about the lack of pockets in women’s clothing, and none of it will be good. A pair of good pants with pockets is a jealously guarded treasure to be well cared for lest they wear out. Clothes designers care more about the form of women('s clothes) than the function.
I bet you if speedos made a comeback, the fuss would be from older men saying that they looked gay or feminine.
Women do talk a lot about the lack of pants in pockets, but they don’t actually seem to buy pants with pockets.
This is a perfect example of revealed preferences. Pants with pockets are out there for sale. They’re not even rare. Especially in the modern world where you can order clothing online, it’s easy to find and buy just about anything you want. Women could exclusively buy pants with pockets, but they don’t. Why not? Probably because pockets are important, but when it comes right down to it, pockets aren’t as important as other things like fit, style and price.
I’ll definitely agree that the major fashion houses might refuse to make pants with pockets. For them fashion is the only thing that matters. In fact, they’d probably only add a pocket if they could justify as a part of the style. And, there are going to be other designers who just copy the major fashion houses, maybe with minor modifications. But, they might not put in pockets because they’re trying to copy the major designer.
But, do a web search for “women’s pants with pockets” and tell me if you don’t find all kinds of results.
As for societal norms, I completely agree that the current world is one where women are expected to be pretty and men aren’t. That wasn’t the case in the 1700s where men wore makeup, tights and high heels. But, in the current world, it is women who society expects to make themselves look pretty, where that’s not expected of men.
The whole pocket fiasco is wild to me as a guy.
I work with a lot of women and I also have a sister. All of them will complain about pockets being too small, but all of them also wear form fitting clothes that were clearly built to appeal to a fashion sense, rather than a practical one. Even the more practical oriented women amongst them opt for something that looks nice, but isn’t the most practical it could be
But here’s the thing. I’m not telling them what to wear. In fact, every woman is free to shop in the men’s section or to choose pants with actual pocket from the women’s section. You can buy CARGO PANTS. You are legally allowed to do so as a woman. The patriarchy is not stopping you.
Whenever the pockets thing comes up, I love to show them what I’m carrying. XL size phone, large wallet, Airpods, knife, keys… I can literally stick a Nintendo Switch in my pants pocket. And those are just casual jeans. If I had cargo pants, I could carry a backpack’s worth of gear.
So why don’t women do that? They literally have a term for ‘boyfriend jeans’ but refuse to wear something actually practical because it’s not as feminine. I imagine they don’t want comments from other women, because I as a guy am utterly delighted to see a woman wear something practical.
There’s a woman in my family who’s in her 70s now, and she exclusively wears pants or shorts with pockets. She doesn’t care at all about style anymore, she’s all about the cargo pants / cargo shorts. Her husband also wears cargo pants / shorts, and is probably the one who converted her. He’s just happy she can carry her own stuff now and doesn’t need to bug him.
But, it was a big deal for her. She was never a very style-conscious person. However, she was raised in a different time, and she wore clothes to fit in, which mostly meant typical women’s pants without useful pockets. Now, she’s happy to tell people how great it is to have big pockets and how liberating it is not to care what other people think of her fashion choices.
I get it. Even though I also don’t much care what fashion says, I still feel a bit constrained. There are hot summer days where I think a skirt would probably feel great. But, skirts on guys aren’t even vaguely acceptable, and even variations on a skirt like a kilt are highly suspect. I’m not so bothered by it that I feel up to challenging the norms and wearing a skirt. If some other guy were to push the boundaries and wear a skirt, I’d fully support him because I want that freedom too, but I’m not willing to put up with the intense pressure it would cause me. Similarly, when a woman does wear clothes that emphasize utility over fashion, I’m hugely supportive. I also think pocketless pants are dumb.
I honestly think that it’s probably mostly women who are holding women back when it comes to pockets. Most guys probably mostly don’t notice or don’t care.
Are they useful pockets? One of the problems I hear is the pockets are so small.
If you want useful pockets, you can find pants with useful pockets.