This it the bottom so far you mean.
Next bottom is whether the infants are conspirators or not.
Even better, infant body armor
How did you get hold of Hamas training materiel?
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OK, that’s absolutely fucked up.
Is that Baby Boomerangutan?
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Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don’t know like.
Sadly war sucks ass.
If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
as usual with this shit show of a conflict, it seems both sides are awful: hamas used the hospital as a command post which means israel has to be able to attack it, however attacking it with indiscriminate shelling is absolutely unacceptable
both entities are completely unacceptable… debating which one is more so is outrageous, and if anyone “sides” with either one they’re morally corrupt, brainwashed, or too stupid to comprehend anything but binaries
The thingis that often siding with the people in Gaza who are living in hell rightnow is intentionally misunderstood as siding with Hamas.
oh 100%!
and there are so many disingenuous arguments going around like “they voted for hamas! fuck around and find out!”… well, if you think that then you don’t get to complain about american politics (as most people do): https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/majority-palestinians-gaza-elect-hamas/
they voted for hamas…
The fact that a lot of people ignore that the Palestinians fought a civil war precisely to not have Hamas in power and lost Gaza to a Hamas takeover after the last election (2006) tells you that the zionist propaganda engines are well oiled and working.
Plus, that there was a protest against Hamas before the pandemic that had to be forcibly suppressed.
Who’s doing that? I think people universally are against baby killing, but some feel there is no other option to root out combatants using them as human shields.
We can disagree but we aren’t being shot at or have boots on the ground.
People all over this very thread.
Using a hospital as a hostage and bombing a hospital are two acts so beyond the pale that it’s pointless to argue which is worse. Both are incredibly fucked up.
Are we still talking about the hospital all the video footage is from? The video footage of a hospital thats in one piece and not shelled? Are you talking about the one missile that hit a carpark and was probably a misfire from Palestine?
Sadly war sucks ass.
Don’t try to justify the mass murder of innocent, injured and sick civilians, including children and infants. There’s literally nothing that excuses dropping bombs on hospitals. And schools. And trucks full of refugees. And people’s homes. And ambulances.
It is interesting how the same US political ideology that supports this mass murder of children are, generally, also the ones who consider zygotes to be children and criminalize pregnant women for having miscarriages. But I digress.
The point is, it’s all a bullshit power play, don’t let it distract you from your own humanity.
those mossad lads are clever propagandists
I believe Mossad is special forces and intelligence gathering, not PR/propaganda dissemination. These are the agencies you’re thinking of. That’s like saying Navy Seals or the CIA are responsible for white house press briefings.
I honestly wonder what the fuck every israeli intel agency was doing, it as the anniversary of the Yom Kippur war, how did they not see SOMETHING coming is beyond my ability to comprehend
Evil tongues suggest they might have been looking away.
I also find it weird how Israel claims since 5 weeks theyd be shelling thousands of terrorist targets, having intricate knowledge of where these are. But apparently Israel didnt notice anything unusual happening there that would indicate an imminent attack…
I remember the discussions in the months prior to Russia invading Ukraine, where activities were noticed to prepare the attack and question was, if Russia is going to or not.
How the fuck are invasion preparations on known sites in a tiny and well surveilled totally surrounded are not noted?
Based on what I have read the Oct 7 attack was not planned through known sites, possibly by word of mouth.
Russia has a lot more equipment to move via logistics than Hamas does for guerilla attacks, they amassed on the Ukraine border before the invasion.They used, among other things: over 5.000 rockets, drones, anti-tank launchers, anti-air launchers, motorized paragliders, dozens of cars and thousands of firearms.
You cannot amass these things by “word of mouth”. And if Israel didn’t know where these 5.000 rockets were launched from, then their claim about knowing where all the terrorist targets would be, seems not very believable.
You cannot amass these things by “word of mouth”.
One certainly could. The biggest, most complicated war in human history was waged long before the internet was created, all logistics needed coordinated offline.
if Israel didn’t know where these 5.000 rockets were launched from
They were launched from Gaza.
Judging from the comments, we can go lower.
“Truly this is the bottom”
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: “Challenge accepted”
Someone just called this post “pearl clutching” in this very thread. We’re fucked.
It’s almost like a bunch of people in the last month discovered “war” for the first time and are appalled to learn exactly what that entails.
Dang dude, I guess everyone upset over the October 7th Hamas attacks are “pearl clutching” because Israelis died. “It’s just war, bro”
All I know is I have heat, fresh water, plenty of food, and today is my day off. The last people who were indiscriminately killed on these lands was 200 years ago and the biggest looming threat is NAZIs who I am not a target of other than my controversial political speech.
Can I be the most callous now? There are millions of us.
I believe they are referring to the selective outrage that this conflict has generated. Far more innocent civilians have been killed in places like Syria, Tigray, Yemen and Ukraine, but none of them, not even Ukraine, has generated anywhere near the amount of outrage among parts of the left as has the situation in Gaza.
Not even Ukraine? Man I still see people flying Ukraine flags all over my very suburban neighborhood. In a way I certainly don’t for Palestine, or Israel for that matter.
I don’t see how that diminishes anything from the current situation in Palestine. Honestly it kind of feels like a cop out way to pretend not to care. “It’s happening in these places, too, so calm down” seems like a strange way to show support for other oppressed people’s.
Ukraine was all over my circles, real and online. Maybe you hung around a different crowd?
Just wait until they find out about the Iraqi war. 1 million dead civilians. We technically committed genocide based on a lie.
No one from that administration has been held accountable despite us now knowing that they knew it was a lie at the time (WMDs). If there was any justice Dick Cheney would have been hung long ago.
I like your outlook. Besides your general observation of the Lemmy hivemind, let us know what you think about the conflict itself
It’s like everyone’s opinion is “my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering”. No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.
It’s not even “my tribe”.
Hardly anyone posting here is Israeli or Palestinian. It’s just distracting nonsense to divide us. Pick a side plebs. Look, those people have picked the other side. Hate them!
To be fair it isn’t the Israeli or Palestinian population is their governments. The populations are just sorta a second thought given both seem to be majority against it.
Hey this guy hasn’t picked a side, get them!
Fighting a culture war to prevent you fighting a class war.
I wish two groups of people determined to kill each other could take it away from the civilian population, to say nothing of using human shields and attacking irrespective of potential collateral damage and non combatant deaths
More like two groups of people determined to kill civilian populations. Keeping it away from civilians would defeat the whole purpose.
I think it’s older than 80 years. I recall reading about old men spitting at each other over rights to fuck the prettiest goat in Mesopotamia way before Churchill took a shit.
No, we’re finding new ways to commit familicide though!
Humans are manipulable, especially in large numbers. Humans are violent, but not irrational. It takes convincing for that.
People are absolutely irrational, especially in groups
Individually, humans are erratic, not irrational. Seeing action without reason is very rare, the thing is that the reason that lead them is often flawed. Group dynamics are a whole different beast tho, they could be described as irrational.
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Love your humour dude
The irony in this post is palpable.
“It’s like people refuse to acknowledge the wrongdoings of their own tribe.”
FTFY
Enlightened, middle-ground centrist. We found you.
Friendly reminder that a defining characteristic of a fascist is drawing hard in-group out-group lines.
(And another is the fetishization and glorification of violence against the out-group)
Wait, I’m even more confused. Are you saying the OP who posted is creating the demarcations for groups?
The person who I am directly replying to.
But make no mistake, Israel is also fascist af.
Wish there was common nomenclature for referring to posters or parts of a comment to make the context clearer. Friends say I am on the spectrum but the Psychologist said that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Like, OP1 is lame, OP2 supports genocide, etc. to clarify within a thread without having to quote or @ which I find a bit clumsy and generally gets in the way of flow.
This sounds like a great idea!
I’ll clarify, I’m just putting out a reminder that being fascist is not an inherent trait, like green eyes or dark skin. Literally anyone can fall into the trap of fascist thinking. The only way to be truly anti-fascist is to recognize the warning signs in your own thoughts and worldview.
So centrism can sometimes be a trap, but don’t demonize the practice of seeing both sides. Taking a hard line with one sides is a step on the path to becoming a fascist.
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So centrism can sometimes be a trap, but don’t demonize the practice of seeing both sides.
Wise words.
It’s how Peace is achieved.
Taking a hard line with one sides is a step on the path to becoming a fascist.
And War, and death.
Wish there was common nomenclature for referring to posters or parts of a comment to make the context clearer.
For comments, that’s how I do it.
Throw one, too, or three asterisks around each side of the sentence you want to highlight.
No need for special verbage or nomenclature. It’s done visually.
There should be a distinction between the OP of the thread and the OP of the comment imo. It can get confusing.
Pretty non fascist to my understanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Karra
Ah yes, the “I have a black friend” defense.
I have Jewish friends, so I trust you won’t call me antisemitic for saying Israel is structurally racist and authoritarian.
I just shown you a highly placed Arab state worker. show me a Jewish in West Bank, mind you?
If you have a Jewish friends then you really aren’t anti semitic are you?
Such a smooth brain comment.
Not to mention a huge amount of Israelis themselves criticise the current government and what it’s done.
“Only a sith deals in absolutes!”
yup agreed?
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My mind is open to considering this. Where is the line I’m drawing, which is the in-group and which is the out-group?
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Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.
It would be cool if Hamas didn’t fire rockets from the vicinity of schools of hospitals though wouldn’t it?
These two points are not antithetical.
There’s definitely no possibility that Israel does stuff like that and then blames it on its enemies to justify its actions. No way.
LMAO, wait, your argument is that Hamas doesn’t use human shields, and it’s all Israeli propaganda?
Hamas has been openly, proudly discussing their use of the Palestinian civilians a human shields for… Basically forever.
This isn’t unique to Hamas, it’s a common trait of all jihadist groups. Innocent victims are rewarded for their faith in heaven, and evil victims are punished in hell. So I’m their warped mind there’s no moral consequence for murdering or endangering civilians. Please let that sink in before you continue to support them.
It would be cool if the counter battery from a highly technical country hit the rockets instead of collapsed the building. Which is entirely possible.
And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?
I mean what’s worse: using a human shield, or deciding “nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway.”
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yeah, this is the problem I’m having with people picking sides. It’s a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there’s a good side. Nah, everything’s a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.
There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.
The whole thing is out of control
There was a ceasefire, then Hamas attacked. Hard to rebuild trust after that.
That may be so, but Israel clearly has the upper hand right now. It’s within their power to put the breaks on. I understand the depth of their rage after what Hamas did, but they shouldn’t soothe their sorrow with the blood of innocents
If only they were at level hand, then the killing would be okey dokey.
I dont understand your comment. What do you mean “if only they were at level hand?”
Well said. The only angels here are the innocents being slaughtered. The belligerents are all devils.
That’s why you don’t pick sides
For sure. It’s hard to know what’s true and what isn’t. All we know is what the media tells us. Hopefully we’ll know at some point
Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.
If polling is accurate, they will be voted out soon enough. To remove Hamas one needs the ammo box, as they have removed the ballot box as an option.
True, but it doesn’t require killing civilians to accomplish. Just assassinate the Hammas leadership until there’s no one left who wants to risk it. Mossad is pretty good at tracking people down.
Cut off the head and the body will die.
But, that’s pretending that Israel just wants to protect itself instead of looking for an excuse to genocide.
OOOoh now I understand! Just kill Hamas, it’s easy! Wish we’d thought of that sooner. Wow, war must be a breeze. No innocents ever die in wars!
If we wanted a genocide it would have happened a hell of a lot quicker. Bombing the places where the refugees are gathered, for example, instead of telling them to get out of harm’s way.
The whole situation is fucked, and war is fucked. There are no easy answers.
And the IDF will bomb as many civilians as they need to to remove them from power!
The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn’t democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It’s also move salvageable though for the same reason: there’s little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal’s at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.
Sure that can change, too. I don’t live there, so it didn’t come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.
I can’t imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don’t live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.
It’s messy
Indeed it is messy. But “removing” Hamas from power is about as easy as “removing” Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.
The problem isn’t as easily fixed as “just take Hamas… and put it over there”.
Bibi can be removed via an election. There literally does not exist a method of removing Hamas other than violence, either from the people of Gaza or an external force.
Never said it was.
I have no stakes in the game. Just an opinion
Every government should be removed from power
There’s an infinite spectrum between “not shooting children” and “letting the other guy shoot yours”
Also, this “oh we’re so much better and civilized” act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.
Wouldn’t proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children’s lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.
Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.
Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.
So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.
For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.
False dilemma. There are ways to react that don’t involve shooting children.
Even if there weren’t, I wouldn’t say “yeah shoot some children.”
You’re misrepresenting my position. It’s, “yeah definitely shoot the terrorist, try to avoid shooting their hostages if you can.”
That isn’t an option atm so just a pointless strawman being propped up.
My dude, you’re arguing that a certain amount of shooting children is okay. If you can’t see how this is a problem I don’t know what else to say.
As are you? If they don’t take out the military targets, kids die. It’s essentially lose lose for the civilans, but one course of action leads to bot prolonging child murder.
Nope. Preemptive killing is not justifiable. No children are saved by the killing of these children.
In fact all that is being done is assuring the next generation of terrorists.
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But they’re not. Unless you’re claiming all Palestinian kids are Hamas, and then if you are, or if your ready to punish an entire people for the actions of an extremist group, you’re committing war crimes and are well on your way to Genocide.
So maybe a more tactical approach would be better for everyone.
That is how they justify genocide.
Well, didn’t take long at all to find a new low.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel and two wrongs don’t make a right. Killing children is off limits period. Dosen’t matter who is hiding behind them. Also the children are not Hamas’s kids. If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel
Indeed. It would be nice if they would acknowledge the reality of their situation. Maybe they would release the hostages, lay down arms, and sue for peace, if they acknowledged as you do that they don’t have any hope against winning against Israel with violence.
the children are not Hamas’s kids.
The children that they hide behind are Palestinian children. Hamas is the government of Gaza and every citizen there is under their jurisdiction and control until they are deposed; i.e., “theirs.”
two wrongs don’t make a right
War is always ethically shitty, but I see no other option for Israel at this point. If they don’t meet violence with violence and achieve meaningful objectives to keep themselves safe in response to Hamas’ mass slaughter, it’s just begging for more of the same in the future. War is what happens when deterrence fails, perhaps this will serve as an example to those who would consider attacking Israel next time of the consequences.
If you decide to shoot a innocent child you deserve go to hell there is no buts.
Israel’s intention is not to shoot children being used as shields. It is to neutralize the one shooting from behind them, even if there’s significant risk of hitting a human shield. This devalues the strategy and discourages such people from using human shields in the future. It’s the same reason one does not negotiate for hostages, it encourages future hostage taking. You let this be a viable strategy that deters reprisal, expect more of it.
I don’t want to flame but I am just going to put this here: A person was faced with the choice to kill a innocent child or not do anything. They chose to kill a innocent child. Doesn’t matter who is behind them you still shot to kill the child. They deserve to burn.
Kill a child or watch the person behind the child kill your child. Ftfy
Something about two wrongs…
No you killed a child period. This has nothing to do with your child dying. Killing a child dosen’t stop your own child from being killled.
Hamas barely has any power against Israel
I mean this is demonstrably untrue considering the attack where they killed and kidnapped hundreds of innocents.
That doesn’t make Israel’s response even remotely justifiable of course. But Hamas is not some plucky rebel group throwing pebbles. They’re dangerous and need to be removed from power in a method that doesn’t kill babies.
Yes? What kind of question is that? If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Yes
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own. I doubt that will be much of a consolation for your countrymen that you’re willing to sacrifice to violence. Expect more human shields in the future now that you’ve proven the tactic so effective.
What kind of question is that?
A moral dilemma.
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
If you answered no to that I’d say you’re honestly assessing the grim realities of war, where the goal is to pacify the enemy without sacrificing your own people, even if that may result in collateral damage.
Nice of you to value their citizens’ lives above your own.
the question wasn’t about your citizens, it was about your kids. which makes his answer even more laughable.
For purposes of this conversation you can use citizens, civilians, and children interchangeably. All are examples of collateral damage, and many of Hamas’ human shields will fit into multiple categories.
really? you would let them continue killing your kids? tell me you don’t have kids without telling me you don’t have kids 😆
How good of you to put words in my mouth. I would not kill your children if you killed mine. You’re fair game but I’m not gonna shoot your children and any other children nearby to get to you. This is not a tricky moral question.
question was:
What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own?
and your reply was
yes
albeit with a question mark, but you followed by explicitly refuting the “no” answer
If you answer no to that you’re saying I’m no better than them, and if you’re ok with that then what is your moral high ground here?
what exactly am i putting in your mouth?
I don’t know how to explain to you that it’s wrong to kill their kids even if they’ve killed your kids. Especially when you seem determined to misconstrue anything I write.
They just love their non-representative and in no way realistic strawman.
Still not a good reason to kill babies…
I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don’t care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can’t trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.
Because you actually exhibit humanity
Using the hospital for anything other than helping people is a bottom. They are both trash entities.
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.
To people saying it’s justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?
Yeah, you know they wouldn’t, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That’s how you know this isn’t about Hamas.
Very good point! I will steal it and pretend I’m as smart as you
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That’s kind of like saying “If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn’t it just take Kyiv?” Because it can’t. There’s a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
Can’t tell if you’re just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it’s own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
Without being too serious, don’t give the terrorists good ideas 🤣
I don’t think your comparison holds up as the double standard you think it is. Isreal have been bombing locations that potentially hold their own civilians being held as hostages.
Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
The civilians of Palestine are not the “opposition”
The truth finds its way to the mouth.
The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they’ll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
The bottom so far
Does no one remember the 1 million innocent Iraqis we killed based on a lie? We bombed people in their homes relentlessly. They were not going after military targets, it was an indiscriminate slaughter of mostly innocent people. Hundreds of thousands of children.
We have committed genocide purely for profit and power, very recently.
That study was pulled for being ridiculous. The Iraq Body Count Project estimates 7300 civilian deaths over a far larger operations area, with far more forces involved, March 21 to May 1.
Nowhere near the nightmare fuel of total familicide 🤣
Do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren’t a concern
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story? This isn’t a good vs evil fight.
“Good guys” are a myth invented by Hollywood to sell action figures
Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
You’re not going to like the answer…
This is a war between two terrorist organizations, one of them is funded by the United States.
We are funding terrorism. Your tax dollars are going to infant murder.
Same as it ever was
It truly is a wonder some can’t think that far
Really disappoints me.
In some ways, this might reflect the futility of multi party systems. At the end of the day, coalitions of multiple groups are still split into two camps of government and opposition. We have to stop seeing every conflict as us vs them.
So, that justifies killing civilians?
no, that justifies invading a hospital
Tbf you’d have to invade the hospital to clear out the Hamas fighters using it as a base, especially if they were forcing it on the hospital staff
That or lay siege to it but uh… that’d be about as effective as issuing another round of sanctions on Iran at this point.
Ok, think it though. What happens when you bomb and invade a hospital filled with civilians?
you think it through. what is the alternative?
You edited your previous comment. That’s just bad form
are you seeing things again?
Prove that you didn’t edit your comment
What do you expect them to do? Stand by as they are attacked?
The problem is military are hiding in hospitals.
To not kill babies and people in hospital care. Innocent life is never worth the victory, no matter what the propganda has told you.
When you have time to get off your unicorn and enter the mortal realm where the rest of us live, please present to us a plan to solve this conflict that results in 0 dead kids. We are waiting, as is your Nobel peace prize.
“We cannot guarantee children will not die so any suggestion we take actions to avoid it as much as possible are entirely unrealistic.”
So because I don’t have the solution to fix everything with a neat little bow on top kids should die? Nice
Sure just tell the civilian dressed militants to not shoot from civilian populated areas.
Hamas is operating out of those hospitals.
So you’re saying “victory isn’t worth innocent lives”, which means Israel just needs to passively sit back as Hamas kills Innocents until Hamas is victorious?
How does that make sense, unless you’ve been mindlessly consuming propaganda.
Anyone who supports murdering children is terrible. All the time. There’s no excuse from anyone to support murdering children regardless of who they think might be hiding among them.
So you’re saying Israel needs to do nothing while their children are murdered?
This is a serious question, because if not that, and if not fighting back, then what do you suggest?
If you can’t come up with option #3, then it sounds like you support Israel passively taking attacks, watching the kids die, and doing nothing about it.
You think those babies were getting the medical help they needed? All the fuel and supplies being redirected to Hamas fighters and their control of the building making normal work impossible was killing kids - I bet they’re much better off with it run by idf than Hamas.
That’s literally war. Become a general/propose a way to kill /apprehend people that look like civilians while hiding in civilian places
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn’t hide inside your house?
Do you consider that a good rebuttal. Truly a childish mind. Of course you can’t comprehend complex situations
“Oh yeah? Well you’re a dumb kid who can’t think smart thoughts”
Fucking gotem
Proving me right. Ouch
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
They look just like the public and fighting from where the public lives. What is Israel to do? Just accept getting massacred.
Does getting massacred justify massacring tenfold? I’m pretty sure the United States emmisaries had this very conversation with the state of Israel.
The thing is, Hamas and Hesbollah see provoking Israel to disproportionate reprisal as a worthwhile gambit. They know Netanyahu is glad to enact genocide justified by retaliation to terror. But now the world will get to watch the horrors of war under Israeli jackboots. And it will be ugly, and the world may have opinions about the Israeli state doing ugly things. The general opinion from the international community is changing. Along with the US’ unconditional support of a regional bully.
There are better ways. But Israeli state has rejected all alternatives, and is glad to throw stormtroopers into the mix.
And yes, the people of Israel, by a significant majority don’t want an overkill response. They want a path towards peace. But the far right does like us vs. them dynamics to consolidate power. It’s the same playbook Trump uses.
I’m not an expert. I don’t know how to fix this, but the experts were shown the door, so here we are. 👀
Well that’s war when you have superior firepower you’re gonna get more kills.
When Israel massacres civilians and massacres disproportionately, it then loses the peace. It also reveals its administration is too immature to deserve international support. The indiscriminate brutality of the IDF will reflect both on the the legitimacy of Israel and its allies, hence the conditions now added to US materiel support.
I’m very glad you don’t have any responsibility in this or any state affair.
ok but if they’re hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they’re the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
right, but my point is, however inconvenient it is, we always have a choice not to bomb hospitals. People take human shields, you don’t have to shoot through the human shields.
Do I have all the answers? No, but people go to school for war. Surely this has come up before at some point in the last 20,000 years?
You certainly should do your best to not shoot through human shields, agreed. But can it still sometimes be better to shoot through human shields if that’s what it takes to get very dangerous people vs letting them escape and threaten again later? I don’t know, it’s a hard question.
hiding is not hurting anyone.
The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn’t be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
we saw this in Bosnia and Rwanda, too. This is similar to Bosnia/Serbia/Yugoslavia in a lot of way (especially the siege of Saraievo).
Informal fallacies are best fallacies.
Argument from incredulity is “this sounds absurd, therefore it’s false.” That’s not what this is, this is just pointing out absurdity.
Think about it again, what’s the difference?
By the way, I didn’t say that this post claims it’s false. It’s worse. This post begs the reader to claim it’s false on the authors behalf
Is that really what we’re debating? We all know it isn’t.
What’s important is can they get away with it before losing the support of those propping them up.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
Anything Israel are doing has been done before by their allies. They know it’s shady as fuck, but also know they got away with it too.
When the war on Iraq and Afghanistan started, I stood with my children, one in a stroller outside of Dick Cheney 's house in silent protest. During the Vietnam war I made several trips to Washington DC to protest the war. There is no upside to war. What we can do today, is call, email your senator and congressman that you want the killing to stop, you want the USA to stop funding this genocide. Call every day, it only takes a few minutes and if everyone did that, we would have an impact.
We did actually. With embedded reporters and human rights activists keeping an eye on things to make sure. There aren’t a ton of headlines about the US bombing hospitals because we avoided doing that. Shocking, I know.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
I was a teenager when that happened and didn’t give a fuck about what’s going on in the world, honestly. I didn’t particularly care for 9/11 either tho, so there’s that.
So, what’re the chances you’ve got nothing to say about the cache of weapons & explosives they found under the hospital along with the fact that it was indeed a Hamas outpost?
???
After all you’re educated enough on the subject that you’re aware it’d been suspected as a Hamas outpost for years, yes?
???
Wonder how many people you’ve personally lied to that’ve seen through the manipulation and propaganda.
And to save you the trouble of responding, fake news, planted goods, paid actors - pick one and go fuck myself. Got it.
oh, i’m sure it can go lower. just give it time
It’s sort of getting debated because it was used as the place where hostages where kept and where Hamas militia were operating from. But I guess that wasn’t significant enough to raise eyebrows.
So what have the israelis actually found??
What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters
Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing
They release proof of the hostages being taken there directly after the attack.
It looks as if Hamas sensed the attack coming and pulled out before the IDF arrived
All the doctors there claiming there never was any Hamas there are kind of full of shit - if people with a meat cleaver walking the hallways having people with bags on their heads in tow is normal there I’m not sure what to think anymore…
It would be completely normal to take injured hostages/prisoners to a hospital, and keep them under guard. In fact it’s the required action in international law.
So no the presence of a couple bodies in the morgue and a few guys with AKs doesn’t prove shit.
You literally chose the most biased source to get your information from and are surprised when all they find are “a handful of weapons and a laptop.”
Yeah bud, they found a lot more then that, and no the people who committed the biggest Jewish genocide since the holocaust PROBABY weren’t thinking of required action in international law
You are 100% the type of intellectual to think that silence or eventual banal agreement toward you is genuine and not a placation to avoid someone who never learned how to be wrong.
Did you really just compare 1400 deaths to the Holocaust? What about the 10,000 Gazans? Are they not human enough for you?
And, no. Even CNN is running articles saying there needs to be more evidence.
Since launching its operation at the hospital on November 15, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have shown images of a tunnel shaft and military equipment, but have yet to show conclusive proof of the large-scale command and control center it alleges is there.
-CNN
Senior U.S. officials said Friday that they remained confident that Hamas and Palestinian militants had been operating under the complex of Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, even as the Israeli military has struggled to produce proof to back its assertion that Hamas was using the hospital and its patients as human shields.
-New York Times
And I just went to go find those. I’ve been looking directly at the videos Israel released. Which are ridiculous on their face.
Yeah I did because it was the truth, and there’s no need to resort to whataboutism on the Israel/palastiniane crisis of all things. Yes I think 10,000 gazan deaths is awful, to try to just compare the situation based on numbers alone is just another manipulation, that would really only work on children. So you’re essentially a bully who tells himself it’s for a good cause.
That type of wording is incredibly common with publications trying to keep a poise of neutrality, as it is true that more evidence would clarify the situation. They aren’t denying the proof, they’re simply saying more will be needed, as any neutral publication would. Here’s a much more relavant snippet,
“The White House has backed Israel’s claims, saying that Hamas was storing weapons and operating a command node from Al-Shifa, citing US intelligence.”
My bias is trusting telescopes about 100x the strength of hubble pointed back at the earth’s surface. I think it’s a pretty fair bias but I guess we’ll see, I doubt this is a repeat of" guaranteed nuclear weapons" but obviously there’s potential.
Everyone is awful in the I/P crisis, an objective observer with the full backgroun will always, always side with Israel. The plight of the modern palastinian child is literally the only objectionable part of this and Hamas will continue to use this until they are replaced with another religious dictatorship.
Because with friends like you, eternally echoing the idea of their complete innocence, there’s about a 0% chance palestine is getting any less fueled by holy war anytime soon.
So the Palestinians are just numbers to you. Great. Thanks for the confirmation.
The last time the world took the White House’s word on intelligence without seeing the proof, we ended up with a 20 year hangover. You don’t get to handwave war crimes. You either have the evidence or you don’t. And before you say they need time to explore the tunnels, this is what robots are for. They even give a convenient video feed and if they get blown up then oh well, it was a robot. The entire assertion that they need time for soldier safety is bullshit.
Objective observers don’t accept war crimes without immediate mitigating evidence. Make believe graphics and maintenance tunnel hatches aren’t it. Neither is common middle eastern security guard equipment.
Also, you’ll notice I’ve never said Hamas was innocent. But only one side in this war is actively committing genocide.
Hamas should be operating out of a Palestinian military base.
(/s and if you’re not sure why please do look it up)
i used to support 🇵🇸 then they paraded innocent cadavers through their streets. Even i a communist have my limits
But bombing is always criminal. IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
Lol?
You used to support (Palestine) but then the (entire 5M current population of Palestinian) paraded innocent cadavers through their streets?
The commenter is literally who the tweet is referring to, lol
Nah. We got several floors below this one, miss. You must be new here. Next floor?
Are those the floors the terrorists were hanging out or were those the floors they found the hostage bodies on?
Can’t keep track these days.
