A debate is erupting around Islamic face coverings in Finland’s educational institutions.
Archived version: https://archive.is/20250813123725/https://yle.fi/a/74-20177195
Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.
And you’ll solve that by telling them they can’t dress the way they want? How does that work, exactly?
You think the kids are the ones insisting they want to be covered up? It’s the parents who are doing it. Take that ability away from the parents and the kids DGAF
Proof?
You need proof that kids, barring any religious indoctrination, would rather not be baking under layers of clothing that differentiates and marks them out from their classmates?
This guy is just sealioning you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Probably yeah, but I felt up to shooting down the dumbest arguments for those reading along
No, I want proof that kids are being forced into these things by their parents and don’t, you know, believe in their religion. Because if it’s the latter then freedom of religion (and, you know, freedom in general) should allow them to out whatever they want on their faces and heads. What mandate does the government have to infringe on the freedom of children and parenrs in this way?
So, religious indoctrination? Because kids are so qualified to be figuring out what mystical stuff they believe in at the age of 9. I’m all for religious freedom for adults, you’re free to worship whatever you like. I’m against brainwashing kids into religion via family the moment they’re born. Give them a chance to figure it out for themselves.
Even setting aside religion, every tradition or cultural value is an example of indoctrination. The logical conclusion of your position is that kids not only shouldn’t be raised to he believe in anything, but also that the government has a right and duty to intervene to prevent kids from being raised to believe in things. After all, if kids shouldn’t be raised to believe in religion, why should they be raised to believe in human rights? Why should they be taught that hurting people is bad? There’s no self-consistent logical framework that would allow one to single out religion in this manner. Hell, more specifically on the matter of clothing, why is indoctrinating girls into wearing burkas bad but indoctrinationg them into wearing skirts not?
Most traditions or cultural values don’t demand belief, unlike religion.
Because we as a society have decided that these are the values we wish to protect and propagate. We have made no such decisions with regards to religion, in fact likely the opposite.
I just pointed one out.
Nobody’s advocating indoctrinating them into wearing skirts. I don’t see anybody protesting them wearing pants or w/e.
But plenty do. Everything from “this is how dish A should be eaten” to “leave your shoes at the door” to “we should be nice to our parents” is a belief, even if there’s no mysticism behind it. Are you going to arrest parents for teaching their kids that dessert is supposed to be eaten after dinner?
So parents should only be allowed to teach rightthink, and the state has a duty to use its monopoly on violence to intervene whenever parents attempt to teach children wrongthink (wrongthink being anything other than what the state, representing society, has deemed as rightthink). You just trampled all over freedom of thought and conscience with that statement, and PS: Fascists can use the exact same line of thought to ban pride flags and minority cultures.
Yeah you’re gonna have to back that one up with numbers.
You did not. You gave no logical framework that justifies state violence in cases of religion and doesn’t justify it in cases of non-religion. Your response to me pointing out that believing in God and believing in human rights can both be affected by your position was “but one is rightthink so it’s fine,” not any kind of logical distinction.
In many societies schoolgirls are, in fact, expected or forced to wear skirts rather than pants for school (see: Japan), and as for the rest: Why do women wear women’s clothing rather than men’s clothing if not for cultural indoctrination? Why do men not wear skirts and tank tops if not for cultural indoctrination?
In the previous comment I was replying to you in this post, you were just asking someone how would you know what they want to wear?
Try wearing a burka for a day and report back how you like it.
But they are allowed to wear whatever they want — within reason. You have to cover your genitals at least, that’s usually a minimum. And you’re not allowed to cover your entire face. Between those two rules, I’m sure you can come up with something you’ll like.
Hijabs are still completely fine, btw.
Those are the ones that a cultural argument can be made for and I definitely see how one can also definitely want to wear them. But burka or niqab? C’mon who are you lying to?