• SCB@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Iraq is absolutely a functioning democracy and not a dictatorship right now.

    Libya would be if it actually got invaded, which 100% should have happened. UN forces not taking control of the situation is a huge stain on the UN.

      • SCB@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        The UN working in Libya as peacekeeping forces would’ve prevented the monstrous situation we’re in now, at bare minimum. If you don’t believe that, you quite simply are not recognizing past UN peacekeeping successes.

        I have never supported the Iraq War but to deny Iraq is currently a functional, if very deeply flawed, democracy is, in my view, to devalue the Iraqi citizens and the fledgling democracy they have.

        • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          The UN working in Libya as peacekeeping forces would’ve prevented the monstrous situation we’re in now

          Because it’s that easy to counter Islamic extremism in a power vacuum. ISIS was active and gaining power in 2011, including in Libya.

          to deny Iraq is currently a functional, if very deeply flawed, democracy is, in my view, to devalue the Iraqi citizens and the fledgling democracy they have.

          The state of Iraq’s corrupt democracy as of 2023 is little better than under Saddam

          https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/4/16/the-long-shadow-of-saddams-dictatorship-in-iraq

          And all it cost was over a million Iraqi civilian deaths, millions of refugees, and the birth of ISIS in 2007.

          The 2015 British Parliament inquiry found that the Islamic extremists fighting Qaddafi would not have succeeded without western air power, weapons, intelligence, and personnel, meaning the best way to prevent the humanitarian crisis in Libya would have been to fucking leave Libya alone in the first place. The inquiry also found that the intervention was economically motivated rather than humanitarian.

          https://www.salon.com/2016/09/16/u-k-parliament-report-details-how-natos-2011-war-in-libya-was-based-on-lies/

          • SCB@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Because it’s that easy to counter Islamic extremism in a power vacuum

            Hey look I found the exact issue the UN peacekeepers address in these exact situations

            The 2015 British Parliament inquiry found that the Islamic extremists fighting Qaddafi would not have succeeded without western air power, weapons, intelligence, and personnel, meaning the best way to prevent the humanitarian crisis in Libya would have been to fucking leave Libya alone in the first place.

            Just let Gaddafi murder people who want democracy with superior air power guys. It’s simple.

            • mycorrhiza they/them@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              hey look I found the exact issue the UN peacekeepers address in these exact situations

              Yeah? And how the fuck did that strategy work out anywhere else in the middle east?

              people who want democracy

              The coalition air mission was to support Islamic extremists in battles against the Libyan government. Those rebels wanted an Islamic state in Libya, not a democracy. They were also committing racist pogroms and atrocities against black Libyans, and western operatives on the ground were aware of it the entire time.

              Read the fucking article. Here it is again:

              https://www.salon.com/2016/09/16/u-k-parliament-report-details-how-natos-2011-war-in-libya-was-based-on-lies/

              Read every word of it before you respond to me.

    • crackajack@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      Not sure where you have been in the past years but ISIS and Islamists in Libya.

      The Middle East is a curious place. Regime change doesn’t work if the population are too fractured for nation building, which Middle Eastern countries has plenty of. It is tragic to argue that living under authoritarians that provide stability is better than living free but without law and order.

      I’m an advocate for democracy as much as the next person, but the secular dictators are what kept Islamic extremism in check. In this case, the dictators are the lesser evils. Which is why people accept that Bashar Al Assad won the Syrian civil war instead of placing faith on any of the opposition to rule, some of whom are Islamists.

      • SCB@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I would, quite frankly, rather live in a world with more democracies and more extremists than a world with fewer of both.

        Liberal Democracy is the only acceptable form of governance.

        • crackajack@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Liberal democracy only works if people are A) well educated and informed and B) have a strong identity as a group. Societies need to be well informed on issues and work towards finding solutions that benefit all. Unfortunately, many countries lack either or both.

      • SCB@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        from beyond the international community.

        I know it’s not your point but this implies asking aliens and I think that’s fun.

        As to your article, I am not and have never defended the Iraq War. Iraq is still a democracy, and I hope it remains one forever. That would be the absolute least the people of Iraq deserve after that war.