The murder of political enemies by the Nazis is usually not considered part of the Holocaust.
The Nazis created concentration camps to detain people immediately after they assumed power. The death camps in which millions were gassed were its own thing within that system.
The detainment concentration camps were for leftists and democrats. Then also people from the margins of society. The so-called “work-shy”; meaning people who had for whatever reason troubles functioning. It would have included Hitler if he hadn’t succeeded with that politics grift. Gay people, of course. Jehovah’s Witnesses because they were conscientious objectors. Of course, people were tortured and maltreated in these camps, too. But how bad it was very much depended on the status of the prisoner.
The first Holocaust killings are usually said to be the hospital patients who were victims of the Aktion T4 in September 1939 when the war started. Disabled people who needed care were murdered to free up resources for the war effort. One method was locking them in an idling truck and suffocating them with exhaust fumes.
One method was locking them in an idling truck and suffocating them with exhaust.
I’ve been reading about the Holocaust a fair bit of late, and it’s interesting to see the debate around the functionalist/intentionalist view of how it happened. OP’s story seems to lend credence to the former version, in that the Nazi state was a patchwork of warring factions that were each trying to take power for themselves and in an effort to do so, tried a little too hard to do what they imagined Hitler wanted of them, namely more and more murder and ruthlessness and general mayhem, eventually culminating in plans for wholesale extermination. This is the functionalist view, where things happened almost in a bottom-up fashion, whereas the intentionalist idea is one where Hitler planned the Holocaust from day one in a top-down approach. I personally think it’s more likely to be the former though, at least from what I’ve read about it anyway.
Growing up in the '80s and '90s, I never really learned much about the Holocaust aspect of WWII. I knew the broad strokes, of course, but the finer details of the Nazi state’s operations are where the true horror lies. Even without WWII or the Holocaust, it was one of the purest examples of a nightmarish dystopia run by corrupt, amoral, incompetent, petty, narcissistic lunatics and sociopaths. The parallels with certain modern governments is terrifying…
Very few people understand what fascism is in the concrete day to day sense. Fascist politics are very normalized in the modern world. They obfuscate everything they do. The more they can confuse and entangle antifascists the better. While we try and deconstruct their empty statements and lies they spend the whole time making confusing and conflicting statements, trying to garner as much support from bigoted people as possible. Its a union of bigotry, greed, and manipulation.
Fascists are themselves parasitic to democracy. Their existence within democracy whatsoever steadily nurtures them. The more tolerable their ideas are the faster they will grow. Tolerating Nazis at all is the same thing as promoting them. Their ideology spreads like a virus, it doesnt try to convince you merely overwhelms you. It harkens out to the priviledged masses fear of the other, and then surrounds them in a fog of conflicting information and symbolism. It says “believe in me and I will keep you safe” before outputting a barrage of rage, hatred, disgust, fear and dread. It uses language like symbolism itself. It preoccupies itself with definitions, centralizing itself as authority over reality itself. Once someone has become a fascist it is statistically impossible to change their views. Once someone has become a fascist they are overwhelmingly likely to never change. There is no scientifically proven way to deradicalize them. That’s how powerful a hold it creates. True believers in fascism exist in this perpetual state of anger and confusion. The rest see utility in fascism, to advance their bigotry or to profit off of corruption.
I was watching the PBS American Experience episode on Nazi City, USA.
Hearing literally the same words that came out of the American Nazi party in 1930s that have been spewed by Republicans in the last 10 years was frankly TERRIFYING.
One of the gravest mistake we can make is to believe it can’t happen here / it can’t happen again.
The gravest mistake is not violently putting it down the second it sprung up.
What is wild is that MOST people had no idea about the Holocaust as it was happening. That when we learn of WWII and all that was around it and you hear about the camps you think “no shit we went to help with that.” But then find out that wasn’t really a motivation for the masses is crazy.
Governments knew, for sure the Brits.
There was a letter explaining everything.
I suspect they allowed since it served their purpose of creating israel which they were heavily involved in.
Same as the zionists who made deals with the nazis who could be taken to the camps: those that didn’t want to move to israel later.What are you talking about? Brits may have known but they were losing until the US came to help. They had no power to stop anything at the time. And governments aren’t a populace. My original statement was that the masses were not motivated by their existence. The media was newspapers and they may have small articles here and there. But it was not common knowledge that these camps even existed.
What are you talking about?
Exactly wat I said.they were losing until the US came to help. LOL american?
And that’s besides the point.
You should work on your comprehensive reading.What are you talking about?
Exactly wat I said.- that’s the problem. It doesn’t make sense because English isn’t your thing.
they were losing until the US came to help. LOL american?
And that’s besides the point.
You should work on your comprehensive reading.- if you think you make more points by being snarky and trying to goad me, you don’t. You just prove to me you don’t have anything interesting enough to consider rational and therefore not worthy of even pondering your point.
You can’t even read a statement and understand what was said. You must run stop signs and blame other cars for not paying attention.
bye, not wasting time on you
English isn’t your thing.
BTW If you’re american it isn’t yours either.
Since americans generally possess the vocabulary of an infantI mean you would know right? Since you like reading one word and acting outraged. Maybe pick up a book that doesn’t have coloring and take a class from someone that isn’t a relative.
I don’t need to value an evaluation from someone who I can’t actually trust to understand a doorbell without instructions.
Zionists were literally engaging in terrorism against the British, some even trying to side with the Nazis (Likud predecessors) to fight Britain.
Originally Britain was going to give the land to Palestinians.
Interesting debate, and certainly has some truth to it. Because individuals seek personal gain, they fulfill someone else’s ideology they don’t really care about but it helps them to get promoted or get rich. But Hitler definitely planned the holocaust as a “final solution to the Jewish question” in Mein Kampf.
In that sense Trump is very different from Hitler - he doesn’t really believe in anything but being the strong man. He has no ideology. He’s not really a racist. But he adopts ideology that enchants and beguile the masses, so it works similar to the functionalist view.
I believe that MAGA functionaries actually look for things that would shock and pain liberals, and then make that real, simply because it would be “fun” for the MAGA crowd and enrage the libs, and keep them constantly in a confused and shocked state. Just to keep it all going.
He’s not really a racist.
No, he is. Yeah, he’ll pick up and abandon most positions at the drop of a hat, but racism has been one thing that he’s been consistent with, going back at least to the Central Park Five.
I think he has some “baseline European racism” but I honestly don’t think he’s a foaming at the mouth with murderous intent, says the n-word with the hard r several times a day kind of racist. He’s just an extremely flawed sociopath on top of that. Openly saying racist shit is just like openly saying things like “God bless America” after a bomb-run on yet another sovereign nation: the dummies respond positively to it, and words are cheap, so why not do it? The only difference is that he’s definitely somewhat racist, but does not care about God or religion even the tiniest bit, lol.
You dont think Trump is racist???
White people invented the power plant, the car, and the plane. It requires an explanation.
One explanation is that culture and science advanced to the point where that is possible, by `standing on the shoulders of giants´ ~ Isaac Newton
Royalty like Trump prefer an explanation that their blood and genes, rather than their privilege and opportunities, are greater than others. Since they wont admit that men are created equal, they cling to belief in hierarchy.
I think I understand what they mean. Trump is not a racist ideologue. He’s not a “capital R” Racist, the way Hitler was. He’s racist and his racism influences everything he does of course. But that’s “lowercase r” racist. It’s not what defines him, it’s just one of his characteristics, maybe not even his most defining one.
Well I do think he is “casually” racist but not serious. Like it’s not a guiding ideology. If it’s between making a scene or shaking the hand of a colored person’s hand he has no problem with that. He doesn’t really give a shit. He’s a malignant narcissist, which means he is driven by the psychological need to be “the best and most amazing person”. Justifying that just because of his whiteness would probably almost be an insult to his unique greatness.
I also think his mind is in a kind of fugue state where he’s not fully conscious, like sleepwalking. He’s more like an LLM that is constantly throwing things out “to win” and his mind is optimized to do that very well. If you’d institutionalize him, put him on medication to calm him down and then slowly and calmly begin talk therapy you’d probably find he’s just a standard narcissist without any special ideology. Possibly Hitler was similarily “out there” in that regard, but they actually and truly believed in their ideology. They also believed in their nation and making it great, which Trump doesn’t give a shit about either.
You can define fascism (including racism or sexism) as a “sincere belief in inequality based on identity”. He certainly believes in that, just only for himself. In comparison, neoliberals also have a sincere belief in inequality, just based on class / wealth.
Even if you propose that he’s using racism as a tool, that still makes him racist.
Sure, but that’s not really the point. And I do think it’s an important point to understand how trumpism and neofascism works.
… isn’t the functionalist (?) version more what the west/victors wrote about WWII? Not even as propaganda per se, just bcs it can be summed up in one line & afterwards easier to append propaganda for various purposes.
Clearly if Hitler planned everything that happened he would have needed to hold power for a lot longer to solidify his sole influence or have overwhelming public support (and then do all the rest).
It was a difference between Western powers versus the Soviet Union. Western powers tried to make sure that Germans understood their complicity to genocide even if they didn’t operate concentration camps. In contrast, the Soviet Union generally portrayed the problem being Hitler leading the people astray.
That’s USA vs USSR in both Germanies, right?
Yes
I think it starts with the person up top seeing more and more what they are able to get sway with and how little accountability there is and things just snowball from there. At any point, the dictator up top could stop things, but instead their true evil nature gets revealed.
I was in school in the 90s (in the US) and we read Night by Elie Wiesel, The Diary of Anne Frank, I remember seeing pictures of the bodies and watching a movie that showed people killed in the gas chambers and mass graves too. And we were taught in depth about the Holocaust and WWII, too. It was a pretty massive subject in history classes. What country did you go to school in?
I never really learned much about the Holocaust aspect of WWII
What? It is by far the most propagandised piece of WW2.
This horrible event (let’s make that clear) was hijacked by zionists solely for the purpose of hiding behind it when they commit horrible acts.I too grew up in the 80’s and '90s.
Everyone in school had to go to the cinema to watch Shindler’s List.
And on another occasion we had to endure a 2 hour propaganda speech by israeli Ken and Barbie they sent over to tell us how cool and democratic their apartheid state was for some reason.Later when I had to fill in 2 extra hours/week of history, the subjects were 1 Easter Island, 2 Israel.
They sure have their hand in many things, including influencing curriculums in other countries.
I suspect it’s even worse in the US.Nah, the Israeli government would rather rehabilitate the Nazis and forget the holocaust so they can replace them with the Palestinian as the biggest enemy of Jews.
They have always had good relations with nazis.
Zionism and fascism are very similar.
There’s an interesting book on this subject called Hitler’s First Victims by Timothy Ryback. It chronicles how Josef Hartinger risked his career, and even his life, in pursuing justice, suggesting that history might have taken a different course if more Germans had followed his example.
OP said he was reading the same book a minute after you. In case you are interested in chatting it up with them haha
I’m currently reading Hitler’s First Victims and while I knew Nazism was gaining power in the early 1930’s, I didn’t actually know that the systemic murder of Jews began this early, nor that anyone in the legal apparatus at the time tried to stop it, so this was heartening in a way even though they didn’t ultimately succeed.
There are a lot of parallels with what’s happening now under Donald Trump, particularly the intentional destruction of the rule of law, which made the establishment of Dachau and the
kidnappingindefinite imprisonment and murder of Jewish political prisoners possible.It’s also very worth noting that disabled people (many also Jewish, of course) were the first group systematically exterminated en masse by the Nazis. Disabled people were legally required to be sterilized starting already in 1933 when the Nazis came into power, and mass euthanasia started in 1939 (called Aktion T4). Mass killings of other victims in concentration camps began in 1941.
The people who were considered disabled was subject to interpretation. Alcoholism, epilepsy, paralysis, blindness, and “work shyness” were all conditions considered unworthy of life.
Autistic people, then believed to have a form of schizophrenia, were also a main target. In fact, the term Asperger’s syndrome was coined by Hans Asperger as a means of determining which autistics were bound for work camps versus death camps. This is part of the reason why Asperger’s is no longer considered its own syndrome but is considered part of the larger autism spectrum. The delineations between the former autistic subtypes were too vague and subjective to be accurate.
Unfortunately, disabled victims of the Holocaust receive little recognition to this day, but it’s not surprising when disabled people still have reduced status under the law in most countries.
Few countries offer enough welfare benefits to ensure a decent standard of living. Even then, you lose access to those benefits if you manage to build assets worth more than a few thousand dollars/euros. We cannot get married without reduced benefits in many countries. Few countries have sufficient accessibility laws. Things like obtaining a driver’s licence can cost much more with certain disabilities. Many countries prohibit immigration with certain disabilities.
Disabled activists have been sounding the alarm on all this for decades, because we are historically first on the chopping block when shit gets real. Keep that in mind when RFK Jr. starts talking about an autism registry or work camps for psychiatric patients.
The irony is that one of the few things the USA does better than other countries is disability accommodation. (At least for now.)
Another great book about the actual process of the holocaust is IBM and the Holocaust. Lots of detail about how the victims were targetted and then how IT really made a lot of the horrors possible
Recommended read for anyone curious about the logistics.
I’ll add it to my list. Thank you for the recommendation.
Been thinking about that one with the AI fun they’re building now. If you think IBM helped the holocaust, just wait till you see what ChatGPT can do. It’s going to be like thought police.
Look up Palantir
im sure you’ll enjoy delving into it —
One of the most well know and influential anti Nazi songs of the era The Peat Bog Soldiers was composed in 1933 as well.
Even years before the outbreak of war in Europe these camps had already had a storied history.
I’m an old musician, who remembers the role that musicians played in the Vietnam War Resistance. The current population music industry would never allow their artists to be so openly resistant today.
So I’ve been looking for music to revive, and create a soundtrack for the growing resistance. This might be a good one.
It’s also time to revive all those good old protest folk songs by Woody Guthrie and the like. Songs like This Land Is Your Land.
The current population music industry would never allow their artists to be so openly resistant today.
Bands like Rise Against and System of a Down got a lot of air time around the Iraq war, and could go back to 90s with Rage against the Machine and the late punk bands - but I’ve definitely precieved an industry shift towards promoting music that celebrates apathy and embracing futility in recent years.
One of my favorites is Stephen Foster’s Hard Times, Come Again No More (1873):
‘Tis the song, the sigh of the weary;
Hard Times, Hard Times, come again no more:
Many days you have lingered around my cabin door;
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
While we seek mirth and beauty and music light and gay
There are frail forms fainting at the door:
Though their voices are silent, their pleading looks will say –
Oh! Hard times, come again no more.
Let us pause in life’s pleasures and count its many tears
While we all sup sorrow with the poor:
There’s a song that will linger forever in our ears;
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
‘Tis the song, the sigh of the weary;
Hard Times, Hard Times, come again no more:
Many days you have lingered around my cabin door;
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
There’s a pale drooping maiden who toils her life away
With a worn heart whose better days are o’er:
Though her voice would be merry, ’tis sighing all the day –
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
‘Tis the song, the sigh of the weary;
Hard Times, Hard Times, come again no more:
Many days have lingered around my cab in door;
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
‘Tis a sigh that is wafted across the troubled wave,
‘ Tis a wail that is heard upon the shore,
‘ Tis a dirge that is murmured around the lowly grave, –
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
‘Tis the song, the sigh of the weary;
Hard Times, Hard Times, come again no more:
Many days you have lingered around my cabin door;
Oh! Hard Times, come again no more.
I also recommend In the Garden of Beasts, by Erik Larson. It follows the US ambassador to Germany in the 30s and how he tries to warn his counterparts back home how bad things are getting. Again, many parallels.
I’m sick of parallels, when are we gonna do orthogonals
Very interesting indeed.
The beginnings are also obvious in germany and the EU, AGAIN.
We’ve already built concentration camps inside germany and on the eu borders. Immigrants are being hunted by the regular police and also militias. One was executed by german police recently. 4 shots in the back, one to the head.
But people are drowning in propaganda media that tells them its all fine and we must go to war with russia now and immigrants are evil.
The most telling thing is how they try to frame palestine solidarity as “imported antisemitism” which is so racist it baffles me.
Its insane. Even the worker party (spd) and the former climate party (the greens) are pushing war propaganda and xenophobia. Its historically so close to what happened back then, bar the focus on jews, fortunately.
Edit: Downvotes are pouring in and misinformation spreaders are jumping on this post. Really interesting how bad lemmy has gotten in terms of propaganda.
One was executed by german police recently. 4 shots in the back, one to the head.
You mean the guy with the knife that badly injured someone before getting shot? You call that execution?
Oh my god. You’re not buying that the cop “shot the guy 4 times in the back in self defense” bullshit, are you?
So what is the story you would like me to buy?
None. Thats my point. Cops shooting people in the back does not need a story. Its just murder. Even if that person were in the process (which he wasnt) of attacking someone else, shooting them in the back is likely going to injure the person you’re trying to save.
My point is start thinking instead of just believing a headline. Its not that hard.
Edit: and just so you know, you’re spreading misinformation. nobody was hurt by the knife. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todesfall_Lorenz_A. that is racist propaganda.
Yes, seems like shit, but still, the shooter gets prosecuted. It was not an execution, especially not as part of a large movement.
You’re delusional.
First you outright lie about him having seriously injured people with a knife, now you try to spin this.
German police is infamous for its nazi chat groups and racial profiling. They cuffed and set a guy on fire. Nobody knows how he died but four bullets to the back is an execution in my book, period.
And most importantly, even if you were interested in just having nobody use words that arent the exact definition in the dictionary, that is the thing now. Picturing immigrants as vile, subhuman creatures, spinning facts in ways that have no connection to actual reality. And we’re discussing if shooting someone who is no threat to you four times in the back is an execution or not.
This discussion is over.
What is the relation between this and the invasion of Ukraine by Russia?
What do you mean? I’m talking about war propaganda. That has zero to do with ukraine.
I will always be hated for this but fascism is necessary.
The chode you are asking said this a week ago.
Fuck Putin and his war, but you took that person’s quote out of context. They said that fascism is an integral part of capitalism, not that it’s great. Just that it makes systemic sense for fascism to crop up under capitalism. Maybe I’m misreading it.
You’re absolutely right. The person is trying to character assassinate me. They’re either really misunderstanding what I’m talking about or deliberately trying to smear me.
You are misreading it.
I will always be hated for this but fascism is necessary. It is the whip of the owning class. As long as you have capitalism, you have fascism.
In more detail if you wish:
Normal society: Person make chair, person sell chair, person eat
Thats the “natural” way of things.
Capitalism:Person make chair, person get tiny cut of chair because [mArKeTiNg cOsT, responsibility, land ownership and other bogus excuses], person eat less, capitalist eat more.
People dont really accept this because it is not natural or fair. Therefore you need a couple of things, depending on the stage of capitalism:
the carrot (you will have your own house! you will buy cool things! you can be rich!)
the veil (propaganda, telling you why it is the only thing that works, why you just need to comply, because compliance will be rewarded…)
the stick (a militarized police force that will shoot you if you dont comply)
As you can see, all western states are currently going down the “military disguised as police” route. Why do you think that is? It is because the capitalists want more yachts.
And after 100 years of propaganda, we actually believe there never has been a better system.
Have a great day.
That’s the full quote, I really don’t see how you’re reading this and thinking they support fascism (or capitalism, for that matter). It’s not great phrasing, but it looks to be an indictment of capitalism on the grounds that it relies on deceiving and abusing the populace.
Was it edited or can you explain how you’re interpreting it?
Thank you for coming to my aid. That person really has it out for me it seems.
Can you expand a little? The discussion in said thread was capitalist critique, no?
Great. Of course I said this completely free of context. It was sarcasm, you jerk.
I didn’t see that in their history?
Of course you didnt because I said this in a sarcastic comment somewhere. As in, capitalism needs fascism as its whip.
They have already awarded a $250 million contract to build a 30,000 bed facility in Guantanamo.
For context Guantanamo currently houses up to about 250 people. The average maximum security prison hold 800-1200. The largest prison, in Angola, LA, holds about 8300. So the new prison in Guantanamo will hold almost 4 times as many as the largest prison, which is already several times larger than average.
This facility will be on foreign soil (Cuba!), far away from the prying eyes of the media, the courts, lawyers, protesters, family, etc. who do they plan on putting there, and for what crimes?
Holy shit. I didnt know it was that dire but I have to admit I am not that surprised either. Please stay safe if you’re in that country.
Yeah, they plan on housing tens of thousands of people at a black site on foreign soil. If they were illegals, they’d be deporting them, so who are they planning on keeping here, and why?
Also, I’ve been tracking this development since he first signed the executive order for it several months ago, but I’ve never heard a single journalist in any media mention it, or ask any member of the administration about it. Most Americans aren’t aware of this in the slightest, and the media is helping keep it that way.
I missed that. Seems like they are already using it to send anybody they don’t like.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/guantanamo-bay-immigration-detainees-asia-africa-europe/
Most people have missed it. I have seen anyone in the media report on this or ask anyone in the administration about it. It should be one of the biggest stories in America.
Sadly, yes.
I think here in the States we’re a 9/11-style event away from happily embracing totalitarianism.
We are an ICE agent getting a blister from his shitty aftermarket grip while pointing his weapon at protestors away from embracing totalitarianism.
I have seen the comment sections FLOODED with nothing but praise for ICE and hate for alleged immigrants. We are taking someone in court was mistaken for another person, released by ICE, and there were idiots screaming GIT, how evil the lawyer is, and how if he didn’t do the crime, he would not be deported.
Yet he was innocent and RELEASED!
It’s so blatantly insane.
Not to give my fellow countrymen a pass, there’s an absolute ton of shitheels here. But do remember that on news sites there are a lot of bot comments. Don’t feel overwhelmed by voice, it’s not necessarily true.
When the killing starts here in the states, the media will just report on basketball and celebrities.
You’re right.
And the big social media platforms will censor any information about it. We already saw with January 6th that Americans are perfectly happy to just ignore what they can see with their own two eyes, so I suspect, it won’t be too heavy a lift for them to step over dead bodies in the streets as long as the smell isn’t too much.
Nothing will fundamentally change until people are skipping meals. Not, like, a few people, more than half the people.
The revolution will not be televised
Have you heard the latest in the Diddy trial?
Swan Lake 2: 'Murica Boogaloo
and here we are with “someone died in
detentionfalse imprisonment” as just another tuesdayI try to make it a point not to use the word ‘detention’ since it’s so purposefully sanitized.
good call. language matters now more than ever, and their newspeak redefinition of words needs to be recognized as the weapon they’re using it for
Speaking of that, I’ve been saying that the Democrats should officially retire the term Republican Party. Hold press conferences, release press releases, etc. the Republican Party abandoned it’s long held principals, and have evolved into the MAGA Party. From now on, all Democratic statements and material will not acknowledge the Republican Party, because they ceased to exist. It is now officially the MAGA Party. And then make all their members adhere to that rule in all statement, interviews, etc. No exceptions, except when discussing history.
It will make the Republicans crazy, and take away their ability to claim that they are the “Party of Lincoln.” They are officially the MAGA Party, whether they like it or not.
republican party died with john mccain
Well, at least you now know that happens next in the US.
You’re not wrong.
Having read a lot of history on the subject, the hope I do have is in the thousands who resisted the Nazis and Russians in small ways. Most of their names are forgotten (or fake, as is the way with resistance), but their stories survived because many of the people they helped told those stories after the war. Not everyone can be a Schindler or a Winton, but there are going to be more than a few who find a way to help people where needed as things get worse.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m00084td/rise-of-the-nazis
that is what told me the USA is fucked; that series is so spot on to what is happening here
