Hi all! As promised, here is the proposed text of the newest version of the rules. The staff has gone through like eight drafts and literally thousands and thousands of matrix posts to get here, so please be kind. You can see @limeey’s comment on the transparency post if you want more insight into how this sausage was made.
We are opening these rules to commentary from the community before they go into effect. To be clear, this isn’t a vote, but we will take all community feedback into account and answer whatever questions we can before finalizing anything.
Please keep in mind that we are not Reddit, we do not have Reddit’s resources, and safety and consent are our priorities.
I’ll post the draft in two parts in two comments: The new sidebar, and the FAQ/clarifications page.
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So I understand the prioritizing safety for legal reasons. But I don’t get why you’re so concerned with staying federated with non-NSFW instances. Making a different account for NSFW content is very common, and other NSFW instances are unlikely to be very concerned about fringe (but legal) kink stuff and want to defederate.
If for example lemmy.world (or beehaw if they haven’t already) defed’d this instance, why do we care?
The purpose of the lemmyverse is be federated as a platform overall. If you aren’t at least attempting federation with other instances you’re more or less just a forum (imo)
That and it would cripple the instance. If every single instance defederated from us, user growth would stagnate. Seeing the content federate into all incentivizes people to join in and engage.
Isn’t a forum, as a concept, exactly what each Lemmy instance is?
As for growth, you will grow organically without explicit federation with non-nsfw instances. Lemmeynsfw is the porn Lemmy right now. You don’t need to have your porn popping up elsewhere for users to find you.
The content of this instance is such that:
- User’s are likely to create porn alts
- User’s are going to actively seek you out
Which means growth is guaranteed. Nevermind that explicitly trying to grow a community through non-organic means (where the community needs to make concessions for growth) harm communities instead of making them better.
A lot of it is that for those who havent defederated from us already, their defederation concerns are 99.999999999% likely to be out of legitimate legal or ethical concerns. It take’s quite a lot and something particularly egregious for a lemmy instance to truly be defederated permanently by larger instances.
On a semi-related note, I created a tool to check which instances have defederated a certain Lemmy server. It works by getting the servers linked instance list, and for each of those check linked instance list, to see if the first server is blocked. It takes (quite) a few minutes to run, and it only ever hits each server once or twice, so it’s pretty chill resource-wise.
As a side-effect, you can also use it to check which of the linked servers are offline in any way, so you could defederate those yourself to limit the amount of needless retries.
As I said, It can take a while to run, so I’ll report back once the script is done :)
Okay, that took a little longer than expected. Here’s the confirmed list of Lemmy services that have defederated from LemmyNSFW:
partizle.com aussie.zone lemmy.ml feddit.de lemmy.intai.tech lemmy.douwes.co.uk lemmy.serverfail.party talk.kururin.tech dormi.zone lemmy.tillicumnet.com feddit.dnico.io lemmy.procrastinati.org crystals.rest mlem.lea.moe lemmygrad.ml lemmy.design pcglinks.com discuss.divergentparenting.space dmv.social distress.digital i.d0ntknow.me lemmy.hqueue.dev borg.chat forkk.me lemthony.com lemmy.bleh.au on.syrma.cc lemmy.ecliptik.com ducks.dev udclemmy.xyz lemmy.starmade.de lemmy.calebmharper.com lemmy.dangilbert.eu lemmonade.marbledfennec.net bigfoot.ninja techy.news lemiverse.xyz geddit.social lemmy.safe-internet.org sopuli.xyz lemmy.federate.cc chat.maiion.com poptalk.scrubbles.tech lemmy.borlax.com lemmyfly.org civilloquy.com leddit.social surlesworld.com lemmy.fromshado.ws lemmy.mb-server.comWe are aware of this list and it should be noted that most (or nearly all) of these are due to either legal concerns for hosting links to pornography in their host country or due to “no porn” rules. :)
Which seems fine, why would lemmynsfw try and federate with lots of other non-nsfw instances anyways? People are driven to making nsfw alts, and porn is one of those content types that enjoy long term organic growth without any advertising as users explicitly seek it out.
A large portion of instances do see a place for properly managed NSFW content in the federation.
Much appreciated. There should really be an API function to return who blocked you right out of the gate rather than having to ask around instances you’re linked to, but I’m guessing it’s not possible because it’s an ActivityPub limitation. Not familiar at all with how the protocol works, though.
I use my lemmynsfw account for posting on regular communities all the time! I kinda think it’s funny.
Revised Rules for Sidebar
Rules
Before you start participating, please take a moment to familiarize yourself with our rules:
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🔞 Age Requirement: All users and lurkers MUST be age 18 or over.
- Posting content involving any person who is under 18 is strictly forbidden. This includes real, drawn, and fictional content.
- All loli/shota/cub or similar content is strictly forbidden.
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Respect and Consent: Treat all members with respect and obtain consent when sharing explicit content involving others. No doxxing. No soliciting or sharing personal info. No homophobia, transphobia, body shaming, or kinkshaming. Don’t be an asshole.
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No NSFL/Gore/Snuff Content: We strictly forbid the sharing or promotion of NSFL (Not Safe For Life) or gore content. This includes fictional snuff scenarios.
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No Bestiality/Zoophilia: We strictly forbid any NSFW content involving animals.
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No Non-Consensual Content: We strictly forbid content made or released without consent of everyone in the content, including revenge porn / deepfakes / leaked content / NC / true voyeur / rape content.
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No Illegal Content: - We strictly forbid promotion and detailed discussion of things that are broadly illegal in most of the world, like murder, animal cruelty, money laundering, and so on. Our policy on mind-altering substances is more complicated – see the FAQ (link to FAQ pending).
- Solicitation of sexual services (either way, asking or offering) is strictly forbidden.
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NSFW Flag: All NSFW communities and posts must be flagged as NSFW.
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No Rules Lawyering: Admin/Moderator decisions are final and arguing with them can result in suspension or banning of your account and purging of your content.
If any material is ambiguous or borderline forbidden content, we’re usually going to err on the side of caution. Please use your common sense.
All users and communities must follow and respect these general instance-wide rules. Any violations could result in suspension or banning of your account or community and purging of your content.
Community Guidelines
- Stay Relevant: Share relevant content in the relevant communities and ensure your content complies with the rules of those communities.
- Self-Promotion: Self-Promotion is only okay as long as the community you are posting in allows it, and you don’t spam it.
- Content Sourcing - We would strongly prefer all content be credited and sourced if possible, to make it easier to keep CSAM and noncon off of the instance. See the FAQ for more info. (link to FAQ pending).
- Furry Content - Furry content is allowed (unless it conflicts with any other rules) but furries may be better served at https://pawb.social/ or https://yiffit.net/.
Temporary Rules
Because of technical limitations of the Lemmy platform, we are forced to implement some restrictions on content. These are restrictions that don’t necessarily fit with our larger philosophy. We hope to revise this section once Lemmy evolves as a platform and moderation tools improve.
- NSFW User Avatar: NSFW user avatars are prohibited as it is currently not possible to mark users as NSFW.
- Temporary Content Restrictions: The following content is temporarily restricted: Hot lunch (🤮), blood, scat, CNC.
If you are the admin of another instance and you have any issues with Lemmy NSFW please raise it with one of our admins so we can communicate on how we can improve this instance. We would prefer to work with you before either of us consider defederation.
… and then the rest of the stuff currently on the sidebar: Contact info and the Donations info
Solicitation of sexual services (either way, asking or offering) is strictly forbidden.
Was wondering if you’d be willing to re-word this sentence, as OnlyFans (and similar) is technically a sexual service (albeit digital).
No it’s not. At least in the US, OF creators are performers, which falls under free expression and is therefore protected 1st amendment activity. Sexual services involve, you know, touching and stuff.
You make sense, but I also think you could clear out the wording. It’s not obvious if it includes asking for donations, promoting paid content etc. Not everyone is familiar with US laws.
Huh, interesting.
So how does this affect those users on reddit who post a price list for their nudes? Like $5 for a nude or recorded video/selfie.
It doesn’t. A photograph is art, a video recording is art. Art is personal expression. Still not sexual services.
It might help to clarify “in person sexual services” then, because I could see this causing some confusion
No Non-Consensual Content: We strictly forbid content made or released without consent of everyone in the content, including revenge porn / deepfakes / leaked content / NC / true voyeur / rape content.
What about NC content that happened in movies/tv shows ? I’ve encountered some rape scenes, harassment, etc. That scenes can be hardcore or not. Is this forbidden too ? I’ve to take scenes like that as light as possible, making them out of context so it doesn’t seems that “horrible”. But yeah, for hardcore ones it’s not possible. I’m asking this because I’m aware some people may find it very upsetting (even with the assumption everything is done with actors’ consent)
For porn, I’ve encountered one of my favorite rough/NC porn like brutal x. I’ve noticed that at the very end of their videos, they clarify performers directly to make sure everything is done with their consent. Which I think it’s really good
Edit : more clarity
Note the temporary content restrictions – CNC is still restricted.
Correct. For now. In the future, will you be able to post the excruciatingly long rape scene from Irreversible (assuming you comply with fair use provisions, of course)? Probably. But for right now that’ll get you banned.
Btw, what does CNC mean?
Consensual non consent. You agree before a bdsm scene, that you will fight against, but are ok with for example being overwhelmed.
As you can imagine you have to know your partner very good to do something like this and have to be able to follow good practice like RACK, SSC.
This seems like a great start.
I’m sure you’ll find more corner cases as these rules start to be enforced.
I just hope you have the patience to see it through, although I’m sure some vocal people will get very up in your face about it.
yuuuuuuuuup. But that’s why they pay us the big bu- wait, what’s that? we’re not getting paid? Then why the fuck am I even here? Call my agent!
What about rape hentai? Aka: tentacle and similar stuff.
rape is out. tentacle rape, being rape, is out. consentacles is in.
Bummer. As hentai rape is not real and the hentai is not actually being harmed.
Consent is a big plot point in hentai as japanese culture requires girls to be pure and not openly want or like sex
What difference does fictional consent between fictional characters make outside of the hentai?
Posting content involving any person who is under 18 is strictly forbidden. This includes real, drawn, and fictional content.
How does this work for aged up characters? Most of the popular anime characters are under 18 even if they don’t look like children. I’m thinking of popular characters like Zero Two and Marin Kitagawa. for example and just how much of the anime scene gets alienated for the rule.
according to these rules, its on a case by case bases that would be up to the mods/admins of what they feel about the piece and its context. if any of them dont feel comfortable with it for looking too young, will be removed. atleast that is how i read it.
e.g. the rebecca/midna shortstack argument that is brought up in these comments
Thanks for the answer and the link. This helped clear it up.
Another question about
Solicitation of sexual services (either way, asking or offering) is strictly forbidden.
Does this rule out a new RandomActsOfMuffDive, assuming that it is made very clear that all transactions must be of a non-commercial nature?
RandomActsOfMuffDive
Hookup and personal ad comms are fine as long as, as you say, there’s no commercial activity going on. Though once you start using words like “transaction”, radar is going to go up.
(as much as I deeply, deeply despise SESTA/FOSTA, we have to stay on the boring, shitty lawful side of it or risk going the way of switter.)
And THANKS!
de nada
That being the case, I will probably create it tomorrow morning.
Too tired to cross the i’s and dot the t’s tonight.
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Temporary Content Restrictions: The following content is temporarily restricted: Hot lunch (🤮), blood, scat, CNC.
How does your team distinguish between CNC and hard/brutal BDSM?
Is hard/brutal BDSM allowed or not? (temporarily)
Depends. Is it kink.com, assylum, pascalsubsluts, hookuphotshot or any number of other reputable, aboveboard producers with a minimum number of strikes against them? Probably fine. Is it like some random grungy dungeon with no identifiable people and no way of sourcing? It has probably got to go.
If I’m interpreting your intent correctly, it sounds like you have an issue with (actual) noncon rather than the depiction of CNC in general.
If this is the case, I would suggest rewording the rules to reflect your intent. For example, you could say: “CNC from an unverified or untrustworthy source is not allowed”, although I’m not sure how this affects your stance on fictional/illustrated dubcon/noncon, such as Game of Thrones noncon or CNC hentai.
Otherwise, you run into issues of people (like myself) reporting everything that looks like CNC.
You’re conflating two things. Our ethical stance is against actual noncon. Ethically, we don’t have a problem with CNC as long as it’s actually, verifiably CNC. CNC is prohibited now because of federation issues, not because we have an issue with the depiction of CNC in general.
Once we’re able to keep certain things from federating, whether that’s via @limeey’s NSFW+ tag or some other method, CNC is probably the first thing we’ll phase back in.
So is fictional/hentai CNC and rough/brutal BDSM allowed or not? (for the time being)
Not, and allowed assuming it doesn’t cross over into CNC, respectively. You can consent to being tied up and bastinado’d without pretending it’s NC, after all.
Huh, I do think the separation is harder than you make it out to be.
Technically, any kind of BDSM that necessitates the use of safewords is in the territory of CNC, in the sense that if someone says “stop” and you ignore them yet you do respond if they say “pineapple” – that’s very clearly consensual nonconsent.
Rape play is a subset of CNC, but it’s not the only kind of CNC that’s out there.
I didn’t say it was an easy separation, just that separation was possible. there’s grey area just like any other type of human interaction, but there’s also stuff that is definitely black and definitely white.
Please disclose what features you are waiting on, do you have links to merge requests or any opened issues for them?
I have a few on my personal list, but overall this is a much larger project being handled on the developer side of things. There’s a lemmy project matrix chat and more specifically, also a lemmy mod tools matrix chat. You’d want to check in there for the complete list.
Have you got a link? Would like to check them out
Okay, im trying to help mod c/brutal and c/humiliation. I like this instance and im really into the content off those communities. (Cant wait for CNC to arrive :) But im not some studio connaisseur, totally willing to educate myself on the subject but ill need some resources to do this right. I can start googling of course but cant you just point me in the right direction?
That’s not really my wheelhouse tbh? I listed a few fairly reputable studios and producers above, but you’d really want a subject matter expert to get into the nitty gritty.
Fair enough,
its not easy to untangle that mess though and i hope if problems arise wih the content posted on of those subs that we can constructivly solve them together with the admins. I would hate to see that content get completely banned.
Sidenote: the stuff i read so far made my faith in humanity a little weaker. Ethical porn shouldnt be so difficult to make and find.
FAQ and clarifications
Q. Does rule 1 mean that we can’t talk about our personal experiences from when we were minors?
A. No, members of the instance can discuss their personal experiences with sex before the age of 18 as long as it is relevant, factual, and not graphic. “I lost my virginity in the back of a Volkswagen beetle when I was 15” is fine. A post that is a blow-by-blow detailed account of underage sex or a post specifically soliciting stories about underage sex would not be fine.
Q. What does “sourcing” mean? Why should we have to do that?
A. Sourcing is identifying the source of the content that you’re posting. Our primary concern is being able to tell if material is underage, or not made with the consent of the model. Sourcing helps alleviate that concern.
It can be as simple as naming the mainstream artist or studio that produced the image, or the well-known performer in the image (“Evil Angel” or “Sasha Grey” or “Boris Vallejo”). If the content is not a mainstream studio or well-known pornstar, a link to the creator’s OF or modeling agency page or pornhub profile or verified reddit profile can work as well. The source must indicate, at very least, that the creators/models of what you’re sharing are ok with being in porn on the internet.
You don’t have to source your posts, but sourcing will help your posts survive a report if someone erroneously reports your material. We don’t have the resources to do a full investigation on every report of inappropriate content, so without a source, mods will tend to err on the side of caution.
For OC posts in c/gonewild and similar communities, mods of that forum must comply with our verification requirements. For OC, verification counts as sourcing which means it is not strictly necessary but strongly encouraged. We plan to implement a sitewide verification procedure soon, but until we do it’s down to each community’s mods.
Q. How does verification work?
A. There are a couple of different ways to get verified, but the most important thing to remember is that no moderator or admin will ever ask you to show them your government ID. If someone does ask you to provide them your government ID, please contact an admin immediately.
We are actively investigating hiring a secure third-party age verification site like agechecker.net to provide verification for us. Until that comes into effect, we accept the existence of an Onlyfans, Fansly, Chaturbate, Streamate, or Pornhub account, or appearance in a 2257-compliant adult film as verification. If you and an admin can come up with another way of verification that does not involve sending your government ID to them, we will also accept that pending approval by a second admin.
Q. What’s your policy on drug-related content?
A. Because of the wide variability in the laws worldwide regarding mind-altering substances, linking to any site which distributes (for sale or otherwise) mind-altering substances or paraphernalia, regardless of legality where you are or where the site is located, is prohibited. This includes but is not limited to any cannabis or cannabis-analogues, any prescription meds, any alcohol, and any tobacco. Discussion of these substances is allowed; links to commerce or distribution are not.
Q. How do I know what counts as NSFW and what doesn’t?
A. When in doubt, flag it as NSFW. If it’s not something that could be pinned on a bulletin board in a professional office without drawing an HR complaint, it’s NSFW. Something doesn’t have to be nude to be NSFW. Feet pics are always NSFW.
Q. I am an NSFW content creator. Can I promote my OnlyFans, Fansly, Pornhub etc?
A. lemmynsfw.com supports sex workers and creators and we want you to feel like you belong here. We do not have an instance-wide rule against self-promotion, but be aware that individual communities may prohibit self-promotion and you must respect those rules. Please do not spam our instance and please do not spam messages to users, but feel free to create a comm for yourself if you like and participate in other comms that are friendly to your content. Solicitation of sexual services is strictly forbidden. (Fuck SESTA/FOSTA.)
Q. For drawings or animation, including manga and hentai, how can I tell if something counts as forbidden content or not? I can’t tell!
A. Trying to make hard and fast rules about this stuff is always tricky because people will keep trying to find ways around the rules and the human imagination is infinite, so we are going with a subjective standard: If a mod or admin looks at an image and thinks “that is forbidden content”, it’s forbidden content. We’ll know it when we see it. (And you know it when you see it too, quit lying. If you’re into forbidden content there are other instances where that material is welcome. Bring it there. We don’t want it here.)
Q. Does the prohibition on bestiality/zoophilia apply to fantasy animals, like Pokemon or magical winged ponies?
A. Yes. We may relax this rule in the future like the some of the content we are temporarily restricting, but that is not a sure thing yet.
Q. Why are you so strict? Reddit wasn’t this strict!
A. We’re not reddit and we’re not trying to be reddit. We have decided to prioritize safety and consent, which means prohibiting some content that Reddit may have allowed.
Q. Oh yeah? Well I’m gonna start my own instance! With blackjack! And hookers!
A. Godspeed, you beautiful maniac.
Admin/Moderator decisions are final and arguing with them can result in suspension or banning of your account and purging of your content.
“Admin/Moderator decisions are final and arguing with them can result in suspension or banning of your account and purging of your content.”
At reddit, we ran into an issue where a moderator took issue with a post of of ours (a verification, actually, so it was extra obvious we were new there). We sent a very respectful and apologetic response to their message asking only for clarification about the rule so we could avoid violating it in the future. The response was an immediate and permanent ban across 12 separate subreddits that this person moderated.
We believe most mods wish to help and are genuinely doing their best, but in cases of abuse, what recourse would we have?
I think the “admin team” is pretty active, and since the instance is more specialized, you can simply bring it up to us in the matrix, message one of us directly, etc.
We have been discussing “rogue mods” as an issue too - and also community creation/moderation expectations.
It’s definitely something we want to get right
We’re glad to hear that, though we are new enough to not understand what the matrix is (other than a movie haha).
What mastodon is to twitter, and lemmy is to reddit, matrix is to discord/slack.
Ok that’s actually pretty easy to understand, thank you 💜💚
THANK YOU for bringing this up @BabuKitten. The number of mod’s with god complexes on Reddit made me grow to dislike using the site.
I want community where everyone is on even ground. I’m not much into begging to participate, or having my ability to ripped away because of honest mistakes (& no chance for discussion.)
Admin/Moderator decisions are final and arguing with them can result in suspension or banning of your account and purging of your content.
There are many moderators that I’ve seen given a position after simply offering themselves in a post. And we can’t ask for a review of an action of a random person that has the title of moderator? Excuse me but if that is the case, this is feeling like quite a red flag to me.
If there is an issue with a moderators decision, please contact an admin for further review. There is work being done to try figure out how make it so that posts can have a reporting distinction of some kind, kind of like how Reddit did. Sort of (report to site staff) and (report to community)
Thanks for the reply and clarification. I still see as troublesome the wording in the part I mentioned. I can understand that you want to cut fast the issues with annoying users but from outside there can also be concerns about moderator abuse.
Thank you bringing it up! We will clarify in the final version, but yeah. Our desire is hopefully to have reporting procedures in the same way reddit does, kind of like “report to community” and “report to site staff”
I would also like to add that many posters are often also moderators, and they’re not an unbiased party when their post is reported for loli/shota (which is a subjective determination to begin with).
For OC posts in c/gonewild and similar communities, mods of that forum must comply with our verification requirements. For OC, verification counts as sourcing which means it is not strictly necessary but strongly encouraged. We plan to implement a sitewide verification procedure soon, but until we do it’s down to each community’s mods.
I assume “we plan to implement a sitewide verification procedure” doesn’t mean it will be needed to use the instance, but just for any posting or mod work.
Correct. It won’t be for using the site in general, rather for those posting OC so they can be sourced and vouched for. It’ll be the same as others where we won’t outward require all to be verified before posting always, but more so in the same instance we don’t outright require sourcing but strongly suggest it. If it’s not sourced, and issues is raised and it seems to be probable/sourcing isnt there and we cant really verify beyond that, it’ll be removed and its on the user to appeal that. It’ll be a means of “sourcing” OC creators basically. We plan on trying to hash it out more but it will likely work similarly to reddit sub specific verification (but sitewide) with an OC verification and an age verification when in question. More info will be available as we hash it out more. Think the way gonewild does, like holding a sign. We want to have more control over it than reddit did and also make sure the people we are placing in the specific community responsible for doing verifications are fully vouched for by site staff instead of having a bunch of communities making up their own procedure and that own mess.
Could something like how Mastodon handles verification be implemented here?
I like how that method retains our privacy (and our sanity, from having to take dozens of verification photos in various angles for picky subreddit mods.)
Even without a website to paste html into, something like, adding a user specific verification code into their public profile on an 18+ site where their ID has already been checked (if the user is selling on an adult platform, for example.)
Of course, this would not work for users without these pre-verified profiles, but I think it’s a good start.
I agree. Having to submit a million different verification posts drove me insane 😂
We are hoping to incorporate that in some way, potentially adding your lemmy account link temporarily to an existing adult platform that we know has age verification checks. We want to avoid having to check government IDs if we can, or at the very least have options for those who don’t want to.
I’d like to add that we are specifically looking into improved community identification methods. One on the table is a “nsfw+” concept for topics that may not be “mainstream” but aren’t “illegal” - scat, pee, hentai beast, etc. These we would rather not show “on the main feed” or maybe even not federate, but we’re not opposed to hosting. It’s just that we want to make the instance appealing to the regular person. For those who want their “extreme” content - as long as it’s legal, I think we all agree we don’t necessarily mind it.
I’m open to hearing the community on this. With that said, “loli/shota” content where the object of eroticism is specifically that “they are a prepubescent child” will never be allowed. Don’t start with that.
I only have one kink, and that’s novelty. So I am missing some of the more “diverse” content (the consensual legal stuff obviously!).
The internet has plenty of places for “regular” porn, but only on communities like this (and before Reddit) that I’ll discover that I’m turned on by 1-legged clowns eating skittles out of a girls ass.
Understand the need to make it welcoming to all, but hope you guys find a way to keep it weird while you’re at it!
1-legged clowns eating skittles out of a girls ass
You are a poet
shouldnt it just read “they are a child” is not allowed?
their pre or post pubescent status doesnt seem to be relevant
The problem here is hentai content based of anime characters. Most of these characters are under 18 canonically and thus any erotic content wouldn’t be allowed under current ruling even though they look like and act like adults.
Then there’s the gray zone for characters that have progressed or regressed in age in some way, a good example is Ciel from the visual novel Tsukihime who technically is past her 20s, but her body stopped aging at 26 due to lore reasons. Under current ruling it would be hard to be certain whether it’s allowed or not even though she both looks and act like an adult (although a weird one as Nasu can’t write a proper R18 scene to save his damn life). Another issue is aged up variants of characters where their canonical age is way below 18 but the art depicts them as above it.
That said I do stand by enforcing an age limit for real people, but when it comes to fictional characters (and anime characters in particular) it makes more sense to go by appearance, this rule would include all these characters while still disallowing Loli/Shota which is the main concern for other instances (see burggit for example). This draws a clear line with less ambiguity than “they are a child” as not everyone may have the same opinion and this could lead to more things getting hit in the crossfire than is necessary, yes I know this leaves characters like Megumin in the gray, but it’s not as big of a gray zone as “not a child”
I think we’ll just have to bite the bullet and make another hentai-instance. Hentai can not and will not work under rules like these.
What about short women? There’s a community called Shortstacks. So are they considered underage because they’re short? What about Midna from Zelda? Do we just need to add boobs to make a character into an adult? Are flatchests just completely forbidden since you can’t assess wether someone is 17, 19 or 21? (Hell the Evangelion girls (Asuka and Rei) are 14 and 13 and look like somewhere between 17 and 19 to me)Edit: I think the FAQ (haven’t read it yet when I wrote this) solves the issue with underage hentai. I still think it’s quite restrictive but hey it’s probably the best we can get with all the Americans losing their minds over this.
Not sure if rhetorical, but I think most understand it pretty clear that no one is offended simply by short stature or flat chest.
It’s short + zero body fat (including boobs) + no hips + twig arms and legs + pigtails + school uniform + baby face + baby voice + childish activity + context clues as to being underage, etc etc etc…
We all know what it means.
I think the wording of the rules in the proposal are fine, as there is no specific mention of “canonical age”.
Boruto drawn as a 50-year-old may not be canonical (which is often the case in fanfiction anyways), but it’s evident from the picture that their age is not 12 (in the picture).
So what about Midna from Zelda or Rebecca from Cyberpunk? Both are very popular in fandom. It also shirks around the question of the 3000-year old loli dragon. Technically that would be allowed.
Edit: Eh the FAQ is a pretty decent way of solving the issue. I’m ok with it.
Rebecca from Cyberpunk is clearly characterized as an adult who is small due to body modification and, IDK, hormones? Anyway she’s not a child in any meaningful way. I see no problem there. I’m not a zelda guy so I can’t speak to that other example.
Another issue is aged up variants of characters where their canonical age is way below 18 but the art depicts them as above it.
Here’s a better way of thinking about it. Isn’t it alarming that the moment Game Freak release artwork of a new female playable character, every rule-34 artist is rushing to draw aged-up lewd art of them? All but one main series Pokémon game has you playing a ten-year-old, with Black/White being the only exception where Hilbert and Hilda are 15…
And another thing I should definitely raise to the admins, current rules of “no aged-up characters” are very inconsistently enforced, if not wholly unenforced on this instance.
I think a problem w/ moderating illustrated content is not everyone necessarily knows the characters being referenced, and what their age is. That’s why community self moderating is important, even more so than just having a couple people trying to do it all alone.
TBF, the current rules were made in haste and have only been around a short time to mitigate things getting out of hand, so people could think with clear heads instead of putting out fires. also mods are kind of on a churn since we are still dealing with a user base that sees the new shiny and wants to do something with it before moving on (for various reasons, nothing against those people). so there are the occasional community that has a mod that has not done any posting or commenting in 20 days and active mods are trying to figure stuff out with limited tooling.
not to mention that the new rules go some way to helping with that, leaving the mods/admins to interpret the context of the piece and its surrounding media to determine and if any one of them feels it should be removed, it will be. i also agree with @kellySunshine in this message thread
Does your mention of the potential allowing of something like hentai beast content mean that the tentai and consentacles communities are okay within these rules?
Thanks! I appreciate y’all have a massive amount of responsibility to deal with running a server like this.
that’s a great damn question and I do not know. Are the tentacles attached to an octopus? Probably not OK. Are the tentacles attached to a humanoid demon? Probably ok. Are the tentacles just tentacles? Hell if I know, man. I’m just an admin. We’ll have to thrash that out with the rest of staff and mod team. Considering that tentacle porn came about specifically to evade the censorship of penises, it’s an interesting question.
As someone with an interest in human (ironically given the context of tentacles) sexuality, seeing all these nuances and intricacies emerge from the complexities of human kink is really fun.
Although that being said, I can imagine it’s very much not fun for you admins trying to navigate this stuff in your free time. Much appreciation for taking on the task! ♥️
I keep beating this dead horse (no kink shaming 😜), but it’s still a bit worrying how difficult it appears to safely build a sexual community online today. The work of making a community safe, diverse and welcoming would naturally always be a challenge, but I can only imagine the stress worrying about the legal and regulatory side of things, so again, thanks for your efforts!
Hentai is on the same level as scat? Fruedian slip much?
Hentai beastiality is in our estimation, yes.
@[email protected] can you edit the post with links to the comments with the proposed rules?
Lots of scrolling for mobile users.
Thanks!done
Are there any rules about copyright? Many porn studios do not endorse the distribution of their videos/photography off their official website (paywalled content).
This is a really great question. From over my 5+ years experience modding on Reddit, we generally know which porn studios don’t DMCA claim (most implicitly do allow some sharing of their content (single images, small galleries, vid clips) as long as studio logo/copyright watermarks are preserved, not cropped out) vs which ones do blanket broad copyright claims.
for example, I have not heard of MetArt network do any claims vs I think we all know about Mindgeeks-owned brands like Brazzers
Of course, the past is not a predictor for the future.
We will honor any DMCA claims and any requests from studios to try to proactively keep their content off of our servers. If someone links to an outside host, there’s less we can do about that. DMCA reporting procedures are in process now.
yah, probably best to stay within safe harbor provisions as best as possible
Will you have a procedure for appeal? A while ago a tweet I made was taken down because someone DMCA’d it as part of their onlyfans, but it was a picture of me
Generally, yes? You can contact an admin if you think that the takedown is in error.
Depending on how far the noncon rule applies, I foresee an issue with media sharing.
Very little media will have explicit consent to be shared in our communities, or even social media in general. If we interpret the sharing as part of what you consent to (as is the case with OC but not revenge porn), no found media can be allowed.
If we allow the commonly used fair/similar use principle (found media may typically be shared in the same type of setting it was found) - how do we differentiate between found porn and found revenge porn?
If we mod as a response to reports, as in: we allow it until someone reports this being wrongful content, the rules will be fine, but obscure or poorly modded communities risk becoming seedy and drag the whole instance reputation down.
But these thoughts can’t be novel, has anyone checked if there’s a well tested out best practice to keep mods, community and admin safe?
Yeah, it’s a sticky wicket for sure. Because look, if someone reports an image to me as noncon and I look at it and it’s an obvious studio shot, multiple lights, professional hair and makeup, model looks like she’s posing for the camera, I might say this is probably fine even if I don’t recognize the model. Is it possible it’s noncon? Sure, but on balance it likely isn’t.
But if it’s like a smartphone shot of a ambiguously-youthful young lady in a dark bedroom, who I don’t recognize and I can’t source it easily because the source is undefined and there’s no watermark and/or I can’t quick google image search it, I’m going to give serious consideration to removing it. There’s other factors involved, of course, including context and identity, but I think as a society we’re starting to move into the realm of explicit consent being the gold standard. If I can’t see or at least strongly imply evidence of that consent, I’ve got to at least consider removing the image.
Consent would also be an issue in that a lot of porn stars have actively stated that certain scenes they have done were not at all consensual.
Yup and if people post those scenes and we’re aware and reasonably sure that they’re noncon, they will be removed. We actually have a (very incomplete) list of specific studios, performers, etc. we are not going to tolerate for that exact reason. Currently we’re debating whether to make that list public or not, because on the one hand we don’t want to be like “if you want rape and underage content, google these terms” but on the other hand it might prevent people from posting something innocently that they didn’t know was bad.
Please share that list. I have no clue which studio’s have consent issues.
Would second this. On one hand I’m terrified to find out; I’m conflicted enough already about the morality of a lot of the porn industry, but sticking my head in the sand won’t help.
I think the number of decent human beings who would use the list to actively blacklist and advocate against bad studios is far greater than the number of diseased individuals who would use it to look up the content for “fun”.
I say share it privately, unless the victims have asked it to be shared widely.
IMO if you post something online you should be aware that it could (will) be copied and reposted.
Either by humans or bots made by humans to do just that.
Literally every time someone “views” a picture or video (or anything else you make available online) their device makes a local copy of it, and any proxy servers it passes through may even decide to copy it so it can be cached for later.
Apart from direct OC content most is older content being re-discovered, or new content from a studio.
Not a mod, but it seems fairly obvious that the interpretation of the rule must be that the content was made with consent, and posted online with consent. Not the re-hosting or re-linking in this instance.
And yes, the person in the content may later have a change of heart and contact the mods and say “please don’t keep this post of me up”.
I’ve seen lots of good content disappear this way, but it’s the subjects prerogative. There’s lots of creeps online that will do everything they can to make someone’s life a hell for posting adult content online.
The least we can do is be supportive when the subjects we objectify objects.
If we support people’s right to make adult content we must also support their right to withdraw that content to the extent possible.
This whole take would mean that it’s fine to share revenge porn because you found it uploaded somewhere, and that it’s up to the victim to chase down every copy faster than it can be shared, and hope mods everywhere are active and responsive enough to remove it before it gets shared again.
Maybe that is the best practice we can offer, it does seem kind of shitty though.
I mean that’s not what I’m suggesting, but that’s kinda how the world works today.
Ideally you’d need a register of known hashes of material, but that’s not even enough either.
Proper fingerprinting would require a lot more processing power and a centralized source to vet against.
Super difficult topic tbh.
But I guess the moral is as always: don’t take pictures, or let anyone take pictures, that you don’t want to show to your parents or grandparents.
You realize a lot of revenge porn out there was coerced, right? Or the people were drunk, underage, in abusive relationships, etc…
Your post is essentially saying “you let yourself get photographed naked, deal with the consequence.”
Life is full of nuance, my guy. Instead of victim blaming, let’s all agree that none of us want to see/share NC content.
If you find a random professionally shot image or vid, it won’t be hard to ID the model or studio, as there’s usually a watermark. If the person was working, you can be pretty sure they signed a release for the photo to be put online. Whether that content was stolen from behind a paywall is another question.
If it’s an amateur, it becomes more difficult to determine. Here are some ways I think you can tell;
Likely Consensual:
- The person CLEARLY without question is an adult.
- They look like they’re having a good time.
- They know they are being photographed/filmed.
- They are sober.
- You have seen them post OC online before.
Iffy:
- They are intoxicated.
- They appear genuinely apprehensive.
- They are a random you’ve never seen an OC account for.
- Voyeur content (unless you see a studio tag, this very well may be illegally recorded.)
Likely NC:
- Amateur self shots of teens; a TON of this content is underage/illegal, especially pre-Pornhub and smart phone era.
You are arguing against a straw man.
Good luck with that.
I don’t know what hot lunch is and I am too afraid to ask
Dude it’s right there in the emoji
Oh…oh no
Really good stuff. But the FAQ doesn’t mention how one would go about removing content. Whether it’s the original author/artist or a victim of revenge porn.
This is a good point. Currently only admins can “purge” and so we’ll need to implement a mechanism that gives mods a way to delete, prevent modlog link to the source image, and request admin purge. I’ll add this to our list.
Couple questions:
- There was back and forth of “aged up” r34 characters being banned. What is the final decision on this? Should we expect admins to strike down any content of cartoon, comic book, manga, anime, and video game characters that don’t have a current canonical age matching the age they are currently being depicted as?
(Annoyingly, 99% of the content that comes out of Japan is about teens and has to be aged up. Even if they don’t even look or act like highschoolers! Exhibit A: Jojo’s Bizzare Adventure Part 3-5)
- Is a slime considered a fantasy animal?
(I’m partially asking this because I think this rule/question is fucking hilarious, but also because it would basically nuke a fairly active community on here.)
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I think this falls under “We’ll know it when we see it”, subjective judgement call. Again, I’m not a hentai guy, so if it were up to me I’d probably get rid of like 80% of it, but we have to start trusting our mods to make those calls.
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Is it a humanoid slime?
Not the original asker, but to clarify the first question: should I take this to mean that aged up are possibly acceptable in this revision as opposed to a complete ban?
I’m not asking this to start posting “oppai loli” content or w/e, but moreso content that provide better context clues for the characters being older:
- Easy Case - Characters sharing a night together after a long day of college classes
- Hard Case - Characters that are physically older and have anatomical proportions resembling an adult
I’m mostly asking this as a moderator since I’ve taken care to ensure characters depicted in my posts are either canonically 18 and up or at least appear sufficiently old enough (if no canonical age is available) to make it easy on myself, but I’d like to have a better idea of where to draw the line when moderating posts from others, if possible, in a way that suits this instance. (Thanks!)
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Understandable.
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I think what I have seen mostly posted was humanoid slimes.
I think humanoid slimes are fine. They’re basically like furries, but for amoebas not wolves and badgers and shit.
Lol I love this comment! Mwah! 👄
☺️
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I see hentai being a hot button issue. Since the vast majority of anime girls are canonically under 18 and even ones without strict ages (for originally drawn content) often obviously look underage or have features which make them look underage. (smooth faces with big eyes, flat chests, short stature.) And let’s not forget the large portion of anime characters which are basically designed to look as underaged as possible, but with unrealistically large breasts glued on to say “oh look they’re clearly over 18.”. How will this sort of content be handled? I know you say “you’ll know it when you see it.” but what about cases like these?
It’s this exact question that made us seriously consider just banning hentai altogether. That would have been the safer move, for sure, but we were worried it would cut off too many people from a safe, accessible place to do porn things.
So context matters, right? Like we’re going to have to trust that the mods of hentai communities are good at hentai, so they know better than a clueless layperson what’s actually supposed to be underage and what isn’t. For me, looking at hentai as a guy that watched Ninja Scroll a bunch when he was 15 and then never really went back to that well, there’s stuff that’s obviously forbidden, stuff that obviously isn’t forbidden, and stuff that falls in the middle where I have to be like “Well, I don’t know who that is, if their show is aimed at kids, if they’re supposed to be a kid, if within the context of hentai that outfit and those visual cues indicate underage or not, so I guess I have to trust someone that is more of an expert”. Because if you force me to make that choice, I’m going to err on the side of caution and nuke everything that’s more questionable than not, which is probably like 75% of all hentai.
But with a knowledgeable mod team, if they tell me that something isn’t underage and isn’t meant to be underage, I’m likely to trust their judgement even if I myself as an ignorant not-a-fan-of-big-eyes-small-mouth-tentacle-sex-cartoons would have made a different call. Unless they start making blatantly bad calls, in which case then we consider taking more drastic action, we are going to defer to the experts.
There are also issues of cultural imperalism and racial bias involved, right? Like studies show that Americans of different races consistently rate depictions of black people as older than they really are and asian people as younger than they really are, and on top of that trying to overlay Western artistic values on top of Japanese cultural constructions can be kind of fraught (and I used to live in Japan, where at 15 I was 6’ and 180 lbs. I was much larger than like 99% of the the native population and they all thought I was a grown-ass man, so I know how that kind of thing works albeit in reverse).
While I understand the logic wrt the concerns about the content of hentai, I do find it interesting that it’s so prominent in the discussion of safety issues.
To me, it’s always felt “safer” than real-life content because a lot of the big risks go away. I don’t have to consider whether the actors were coerced, or whether they would have been able to stop a scene if uncomfortable, or whether they regret putting that content out there and so on.
As a consumer of hentai or similar, it becomes a lot more reasonable to say, “I don’t know what the imaginary background of this character is, but I’m interpretive them as an adult, so I’m all good”, or “Did they really give their consent to dick-cthulhu? Of course they did! Who wouldn’t!?” because I can’t really be meaningfully wrong about a imaginary character.
Whatever the morality of, I guess let’s say, fictional immorality, the potential harm from “real” porn just seems so much larger than the potential harm from drawings and writing. However much I enjoy seeing real human beings doing delightful things to each other, if the only porn on the internet was hentai and dirty stories, I’m inclined to think it’d probably be an overall win in terms of harm reduction, just because it doesn’t require real people to be doing the stunts. So it’s interesting that the fictional stuff seems to be so top of mind when we talk about safety.
Although, I imagine that’s likely because in the discussions of rule-setting the issues around “real” porn are talked about far less, because who’s really going to make a good-faith argument that’s pro sharing images of abuse of real people.
(Also found your point about cultural imperialism interesting! An angle on the topic I’d not considered before)
Listen, if you’re asking for my personal, non-admin opinion? IDGAF if a fictional character with a fictional age in their fictional teens gets fictionally gangbanged without fictional consent by fictional pack of giant mutant beavers. None of it is real, nobody’s rights are actually getting violated, and while I understand that it may turn a lot of people off, whether or not a kink is popular shouldn’t be the basis on which we judge it.
BUT that isn’t the environment we’re in here. That type of content is distasteful enough that we a) risk defederation, and b) risk alienating a large proportion of our other users, and c) risk attracting the kind of users that we don’t want if we allow that kind of content in. There are places on the fediverse where that kind of content is not only allowed but encouraged, and that’s where people who are into that stuff can go.
I really wish we could be all things for all people, and if this were just MikeyMongolNSFW.com the rules would look a lot different – but we aren’t, and we aren’t, and they don’t.
I definitely think banning hentai alltogether would’ve been the safer bet! But I understand your current choices/decisions. Even though I feel that eventually that call will end up being made anyway due to the baggage that comes with the vast majority of hentai content. I trust this instance to moderate things properly, unlike other instances like Burggit.
I will definitely report content I find that seems to be infringing on the rules and help the efforts as best I can! Thank you for all you do!
Don’t even always have to be glued on. Had a girl I went to school with that had unrealistically large boobs already at 13-14. She was not overweight or anything but was already sporting a D-cup at 15.
Safe to say she was ogled by many teenage boys… and adults.
This is probably obvious, but I make OC AI art (as OC as you can consider AI art haha). Does this require any verification or is that only for OC photos of real people?
potentially? i think the AI thing has more to do with copyright then consent at this point though and its something society as a whole is still trying to find the boundaries of
Correct. It’s kind of a minefield everyone is figuring out. But it’s mostly in reference for real people and deepfakes.
Respect and Consent: Treat all members with respect and obtain consent when sharing explicit content involving others.
Does this mean that we are not allowed to post other OC’s content here without their knowledge/consent? what about crossposting a post that an OC has made in a community to other communities within this instance, what about to places outside of this instance?
What if the person/people involved in the post are not members here of this lemmy instance, but elsewhere in fediverse or websites elsewhere - does it make it ok to post their OC then without consent simply because they are not “members”?
What about unattributed photos/images grabbed off the web. How do we get consent?
[Addition] Are moderators primarily responsible for enforcing this rule and banning/removing content posts? Can moderators be reported/removed from comms for NOT enforcing these rules for posters and by allowing posters to ignore this rule and allow such content in their comms?
Does this mean that we are not allowed to post other OC’s content here without their knowledge/consent?
Yup, if we find out about it, we will remove that image. repeat offenses will result in suspensions or bans. Keep in mind we have no way of knowing whether or not you have consent, so we will assume that you do unless we have reason to believe otherwise.
what about crossposting a post that an OC has made in a community to other communities within this instance,
Super easy to get permission for that, super easy for OP to call you on it if you don’t. Just ask!
What if the person/people involved in the post are not members here of this lemmy instance, but elsewhere in fediverse or websites elsewhere - does it make it ok to post their OC then without consent simply because they are not “members”?
Nope.
What about unattributed photos/images grabbed off the web. How do we get consent?
So this is a great question. The very base level of consent we’re looking for is “is this person OK with being naked on the internet”. If we think that that’s missing – if it’s revenge porn, leaked, deepfake, straight up noncon, or if it’s ambiguous – then we will pull the image. If we think the person is OK with being naked on the internet, then we’ll probably let it pass unless we have more info. Like I have no idea if that person has licensed this photo CC share alike or all rights reserved, if they want people to spread it around or they don’t, and I’m not going to bother investigating because I have a life outside of this site. If that person ever pops up and says hey, this is pirated content, please remove it, I will comply.
[Addition] Are moderators primarily responsible for enforcing this rule and banning/removing content posts? Can moderators be reported/removed from comms for NOT enforcing these rules for posters and by allowing posters to ignore this rule and allow such content in their comms?
Yes, and eventually yes though we would try to work with the mod to solve the issue first. Removal would be a last resort.
Thanks much. This helps. While I personally don’t post other OC’s content, I mod several communities where the content mix will likely become dominated by mostly OC, so your answers are a good guide for future posters into the communities.
Just as an aside, I’ve had the following rule on the OC focused subreddits I have on Reddit, mainly to respect OC creators, and at the same time allows us to weed out karma farmers and repost bots:
from r/butterflywings sidebar NEW- If you find a post of an awesome labia posted by an amateur OC poster, please invite the poster to directly post here. We will no longer allow xposts of such content here, without the OP’s consent. If you already have obtained such consent, please add a comment into the post such as “(x)posted with u/<redditor>'s consent”.
I plan on adding same rule here to various communities I mod.
love it.
You ask good questions, but I’m afraid they’re very hard to answer no matter what the admins themselves believe to be morally correct.
Most of what you refer to is essentially a copyright issue. Unless otherwise specified by the copyright holders/creators of a piece of work, you’re not allowed to repost it. In most jurisdictions this is very straight forward. The problem is enforcement, obviously: how are you going to verify that every OP has the right to share the material they’re sharing? Excluding OC, you’ll find they probably don’t. Really determining this is very time consuming at best and impossible at worst.
So I don’t think it would make sense to have a strict “you can only post OC or content you have the rights to” because it’s just not compatible with a platform like Lemmy (or Reddit, for that matter). And if enforcement is more or less of the table, you might as well not have such an explicit rule and only respond to complaints 🤷
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