Yeah, it’s that. I’m a Christian, but I have atheist close friends, and I love our debates, but it’s because we respect each others enough to accept and recognise that we use the words differently. It’s generally not the case on the net.
The Epicurian argument is strong only if you have a very broad definition of all-powerfulness. A definition that classical Christian theology doesn’t have, as it recognizes a lot of logical limitations. All-powerfulness is the capacity to do everything possible. So yes, the Christian God is limited.
One of these logical limitations is: God can’t create anything free without allowing their creation to do thing that they disapprove, thus God being good, they can’t create freedom without accepting the existence of evil, which is not a thing per se, but the absence of good. God chose freedom over perfection, and it’s not a human.thing, but a cosmological one.
So yeah, this is a strong argument only of you are already convinced, but it’s generally the case on religious matters. I tend to tink that the only purely rational position is true agnosticism, but sometimes for important things you have to make choices without being sure. That’s why I’m an agnostic theist.
the existence of evil, which is not a thing per se, but the absence of good
…what? The absence of good is indifference. Evil takes effort, you have to work at it. It’s the difference between trying to help the homeless, ignoring the homeless, and burning down tent cities.
One of these logical limitations is: God can’t create anything free without allowing their creation to do thing that they disapprove, thus God being good, they can’t create freedom without accepting the existence of evil, which is not a thing per se, but the absence of good. God chose freedom over perfection, and it’s not a human.thing, but a cosmological one.
What I don’t get is - didn’t God create the necessity of evil for freedom to exist, just like he created everything else? He could have chosen to create the concept of freedom such that it still doesn’t allow for evil, but for some reason didn’t choose to do so, right?
Or is God bound by rules from an even higher power?
They’re bound by logic. They can make anything possible, but 2+2 will never be 5, and even God can’t change that. Something can’t be and not be. Something thus can’t be free without having any choice, or it’s not freedom.
But didn’t they create this logic, just like everything else? So either they’ve deliberately bound themselves, or some even higher being created that logic by which they are bound.
Something thus can’t be free without having any choice, or it’s not freedom.
Why is the freedom to do evil things necessary for freedom per se? You can have plenty of choice without the ability to do evil.
You can have plenty of choice without the ability to do evil.
It’s not a question of choice, nature for example doesn’t have any choice, and there are illnesses and natural catastrophes. It’s a question of being. God being the Good, they can’t create something purely good that is not them, or bound by them, thus or not different, or not free. But they didn’t created evil, evil doesn’t exist, evil is just something not good, thus not God. And it’s a spectrum, from almost good to almost not good.
Logic is a result of the rules of our universe, no? A universe could be created where 2 + 2 = 5. Logic dictates that matter can’t be created, yet God made our universe, right? But sounds like you’re saying God is bound by rules from an even higher being - after all, isn’t the idea that everything has to have an origin, except God?
It’s not a question of choice, nature for example doesn’t have any choice, and there are illnesses and natural catastrophes.
Well yes, illnesses and natural catastrophes exist because God created them, right? They could have created a universe that can’t have viruses existing, or where earth quakes are impossible.
But they didn’t created evil, evil doesn’t exist, evil is just something not good, thus not God. And it’s a spectrum, from almost good to almost not good.
But didn’t God create the very distinction of things being good or not good? Why couldn’t an all-powerful being have chosen to create the universe such that everything is good?
The actual argument is everything has to have an origin inside the universe, thus our universe to exist must have a cause exterior to it. We call this cause God. It’s not a question of higher being, just that a universe where the effect predates the cause can’t hold. God is not less omnipotent because they can’t make a round square.
Why couldn’t an all-powerful being have chosen to create the universe such that everything is good?
I thought I answered this question twice, I’m sorry if I’m not clear, English is hard for me. So I’ll try again: because it’s logically impossible to have a universe which is not a part of God, thus independant and free, that is also perfectly good, as God is perfectly good. Put as a formula, the formulas
universe = good
and
universe ≠ God
are not possible at the same time if
God = good
It’s not a question of higher being, just that a universe where the effect predates the cause can’t hold. God is not less omnipotent because they can’t make a round square.
So this would mean that logic exists outside our universe, and since God can’t change logic, it’s an even higher power than they are - right? But why isn’t God bound by logic regarding e.g. creating matter/energy?
It seems it all comes down to God having to follow rules beyond their own design and power, which flies in the face of them being all-powerful and all-knowing. After all, even if evil must be an option, they could have created the universe such that no being would ever choose to do evil - they already knew the choices everyone would make when they created the universe!
I always see it coming back “evil is required for free choice”.
Doesn’t make any sense to me. Does gravity limit my free choice because i can’t just fly into the sky? Or does death limit my free choice because i might just want to continue to exist on this plane? Does my body limit my free choice because i might just want to be non corporeal (but not divine at the same time), not bound by hunger, disease, …
All of the above are not an issue for “free choice”, but allowing me to “choose for evil” somehow is?
If a world where crime and pain and disease and … doesn’t exist. I don’t see how there would be no free choice in that world. We would be bound by the restrictions of that world, just as we are currently bound by the restrictions of the current world.
It imo just sounds like a really lame excuse for the problem of evil. It does seem to work for those who believe in a god apparently, but i find that hard to understand. Our choices are incredibly limited, and we still regard it as “free will”. But that one choice, o boy, that one choice that if god could prevent us from making it, and thus would disprove him being good if that was an option. That one specific choice, yeah, that’s obviously not possible. He’s all powerful, but that’s just how it is you know?
I really don’t get how this is supposed to make any sense. Any god worth being called a god could have made a world without suffering, while still allowing for free choice. Choice is always limited, and evil & suffering aren’t special in any way. Take them away and i can still choose to enjoy a billion different things, while not having to suffer at all.
Yeah, it’s that. I’m a Christian, but I have atheist close friends, and I love our debates, but it’s because we respect each others enough to accept and recognise that we use the words differently. It’s generally not the case on the net.
The Epicurian argument is strong only if you have a very broad definition of all-powerfulness. A definition that classical Christian theology doesn’t have, as it recognizes a lot of logical limitations. All-powerfulness is the capacity to do everything possible. So yes, the Christian God is limited.
One of these logical limitations is: God can’t create anything free without allowing their creation to do thing that they disapprove, thus God being good, they can’t create freedom without accepting the existence of evil, which is not a thing per se, but the absence of good. God chose freedom over perfection, and it’s not a human.thing, but a cosmological one.
So yeah, this is a strong argument only of you are already convinced, but it’s generally the case on religious matters. I tend to tink that the only purely rational position is true agnosticism, but sometimes for important things you have to make choices without being sure. That’s why I’m an agnostic theist.
…what? The absence of good is indifference. Evil takes effort, you have to work at it. It’s the difference between trying to help the homeless, ignoring the homeless, and burning down tent cities.
What I don’t get is - didn’t God create the necessity of evil for freedom to exist, just like he created everything else? He could have chosen to create the concept of freedom such that it still doesn’t allow for evil, but for some reason didn’t choose to do so, right?
Or is God bound by rules from an even higher power?
They’re bound by logic. They can make anything possible, but 2+2 will never be 5, and even God can’t change that. Something can’t be and not be. Something thus can’t be free without having any choice, or it’s not freedom.
But didn’t they create this logic, just like everything else? So either they’ve deliberately bound themselves, or some even higher being created that logic by which they are bound.
Why is the freedom to do evil things necessary for freedom per se? You can have plenty of choice without the ability to do evil.
Logic is not created, it just is.
It’s not a question of choice, nature for example doesn’t have any choice, and there are illnesses and natural catastrophes. It’s a question of being. God being the Good, they can’t create something purely good that is not them, or bound by them, thus or not different, or not free. But they didn’t created evil, evil doesn’t exist, evil is just something not good, thus not God. And it’s a spectrum, from almost good to almost not good.
Logic is a result of the rules of our universe, no? A universe could be created where 2 + 2 = 5. Logic dictates that matter can’t be created, yet God made our universe, right? But sounds like you’re saying God is bound by rules from an even higher being - after all, isn’t the idea that everything has to have an origin, except God?
Well yes, illnesses and natural catastrophes exist because God created them, right? They could have created a universe that can’t have viruses existing, or where earth quakes are impossible.
But didn’t God create the very distinction of things being good or not good? Why couldn’t an all-powerful being have chosen to create the universe such that everything is good?
The actual argument is everything has to have an origin inside the universe, thus our universe to exist must have a cause exterior to it. We call this cause God. It’s not a question of higher being, just that a universe where the effect predates the cause can’t hold. God is not less omnipotent because they can’t make a round square.
I thought I answered this question twice, I’m sorry if I’m not clear, English is hard for me. So I’ll try again: because it’s logically impossible to have a universe which is not a part of God, thus independant and free, that is also perfectly good, as God is perfectly good. Put as a formula, the formulas
So this would mean that logic exists outside our universe, and since God can’t change logic, it’s an even higher power than they are - right? But why isn’t God bound by logic regarding e.g. creating matter/energy?
It seems it all comes down to God having to follow rules beyond their own design and power, which flies in the face of them being all-powerful and all-knowing. After all, even if evil must be an option, they could have created the universe such that no being would ever choose to do evil - they already knew the choices everyone would make when they created the universe!
I always see it coming back “evil is required for free choice”.
Doesn’t make any sense to me. Does gravity limit my free choice because i can’t just fly into the sky? Or does death limit my free choice because i might just want to continue to exist on this plane? Does my body limit my free choice because i might just want to be non corporeal (but not divine at the same time), not bound by hunger, disease, …
All of the above are not an issue for “free choice”, but allowing me to “choose for evil” somehow is?
If a world where crime and pain and disease and … doesn’t exist. I don’t see how there would be no free choice in that world. We would be bound by the restrictions of that world, just as we are currently bound by the restrictions of the current world.
It imo just sounds like a really lame excuse for the problem of evil. It does seem to work for those who believe in a god apparently, but i find that hard to understand. Our choices are incredibly limited, and we still regard it as “free will”. But that one choice, o boy, that one choice that if god could prevent us from making it, and thus would disprove him being good if that was an option. That one specific choice, yeah, that’s obviously not possible. He’s all powerful, but that’s just how it is you know?
I really don’t get how this is supposed to make any sense. Any god worth being called a god could have made a world without suffering, while still allowing for free choice. Choice is always limited, and evil & suffering aren’t special in any way. Take them away and i can still choose to enjoy a billion different things, while not having to suffer at all.
The answers will always boil down to: “god works in mysterious ways and we must have faith”
This also depends on once definition of freedom.