They often do general token things like “hire women”
The question of the gender should not be relevant at all when choosing a professional and the fact you insist on making it so will only aggravate the issues.
While ignoring gender sounds good on the surface, I think by ignoring we default to the uncritical and unthinking status quo, which unfortunately is still gendered in nature, i.e. there is something called “implicit bias” where people have internalized biases and preferences that they are not even aware they are thinking or having.
Gender blindness can still be a useful tool, for example, instead of attacking OP for asking how to reduce gender bias, you could have suggested a HR policy that removes any gendered aspects of candidates CVs or applications so that decisions on who gets interviewed can’t be subject to those biases.
Giving an opposite opinion of your own does not mean someone is attacking you, and it’s sad that you feel that.
At any rate, you are saying just what I said, only with different words. It seems that you prefer for it to be a bias, only for it to be in your favour. Which sounds only natural given we are all humans, but i fail to see how it’ll solve anything. Putting incompetent people in power is just wrong.
this thread should be suggesting the hr policies to ignore sex instead of favouring a specific sex. What’s wrong with going with merit?
It was your tone, not that the opinion was dissenting, that made it seem aggressive or like an attack. My suggestion was how you could have worded it differently to make your argument so it comes across as reasonable and not just dismissive and rude. (That’s just my perception, not trying to litigate that or insist my perspective is the only way to interpret your message, but it is the perspective I’m coming from when reading and responding to you.)
It seems that you prefer for it to be a bias, only for it to be in your favour. Which sounds only natural given we are all humans, but i fail to see how it’ll solve anything. Putting incompetent people in power is just wrong.
The way you articulate the opposing perspective is with strawmen … I can’t tell if you really think we are “pro-bias” and in favor of putting incompetent people in power when expressing concerns with gender inequality, or if you are being intellectually lazy and are in a habit of arguing in bad faith against strawmen so you feel confident in your position and don’t have to consider other ideas?
As a conversational partner, it sends signals that you aren’t worth engaging or taking seriously - you just might consider that …
Either way, characterizing advocating for gender equality in the workplace with policies that are not just gender-blind as being equivalent to putting incompetent people in power and institutionalizing bias comes across as either deeply unaware, or overtly sexist … I will assume it’s the prior, that you’re just unaware. (See how I do that, I give you the benefit of the doubt, even when you assume the worst about my perspectives? That’s because I’m trying to be nice and I want to have a conversation with you, and because I would prefer to have a real discussion here rather than a pointless shouting match. I hope my investment is worthwhile, and not a mistake 😅)
So why do I believe this? Well, when you only focus only on merit and take entirely gender-blind approaches (which I can understand the immediate appeal of - that sounds great, right?), what happens is that you entrench the gender inequalities that already existed … that’s because the inequality does not just happen at that one moment, e.g. when deciding which candidate to hire or who gets the scholarship.
Women are disadvantaged from birth, and the results of those inequalities throughout their lives are compounding - the way teachers, police, doctors, parents, and everyone else in society treats them is different and worse, and this results in worse outcomes. We have study after study showing that minorities (including women) experience more stress and this translates to worse performance (e.g. take this study that found even just the ways that unconscious, unintentional bias impacts women in STEM, here’s a PDF link; another study found that even when you control for job satisfaction, work environment, and self-evaluation, the biased ways people treat women were a predictor in those women were a statistically significant predictor of turnover). That is to say, the perceived incompetence and poor outcomes of minorities is due to the ways they are mistreated, and we should probably do something to even those odds. Those interventions are partially what help mitigate gender inequality, and what we’re talking about here.
An example to make this more concrete: as a marginalized group, women are victims of sexual and physical violence at much higher rates than men - a young sexual assault victim (whether male of female) is much less likely to succeed (let alone excel) in their studies than someone who hasn’t been victimized, and guess what - the differences in who is a victim is gendered.
By eliminating gender as a consideration when creating policies, you eliminate the possibility for increasing the odds of success and recovery for marginalized genders. This isn’t just theoretical, it’s empirical, and it’s not really controversial either.
Here’s a helpful source you could dig into if you feel like it:
https://gender.study/issues-of-gender-and-development/gender-blind-approach-inequality-failure/
I’m not sure - I would probably want to look at what is well evidenced, i.e. what actually demonstrates reduced gender bias. Bias might be really hard to actually measure, so we might want to be specific about what we care about, e.g.
- salary gap between men and women
- % of workforce that is men vs women
and so on …
Policies that I’ve seen and come to mind (but may be flawed still, I haven’t thought much about this):
- provide childcare at the workplace, have somewhere your kids can be safe and taken care of while you’re at work
- seek out new hires, interns, and other candidates from all-women’s universities and colleges in addition to ivy leagues, major state schools, etc.
- have strong maternity and paternity leave
You make excellent points about the maternity and paternity policies. Fathers shouldn’t be ignored, and also it puts the parenting responsibility on women, leading to managers being less likely to hire or promote them. Supporting parents is a great way to reduce gender bias.
For me I’d go with more women in key management positions. They consider women when making decisions, for example making more parent friendly choices. In my experience it helps with diversity overall, other groups are more likely to occur to a woman.
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Ensure it is illegal to ask about pregnancy.
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Maternity leave that is at least 12 months.
These are both important because women are assumed to be ‘less productive’ due to childbirth and are therefore given less opportunity. Which amounts to a betrayal of future generations since children should be able to bond with mothers (and vice versa) during the first year of life without it affecting mom’s oppurtunities. Supporting women is our investment in the future
- Keep men away from each other. Studies have shown that, when men are concentrated in groups, testosterone and aggression go up while empathy goes down. Men then begin to assume they have dominion over all other living things, including women.
Men need to spend time with women and children to become more balanced individuals who prioritize empathy and inclusiveness. Many men would also benefit from having greater exposure to and respect for nature also.
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Don’t promote gender neutrality blindly. Too many institutions aim for 50/50 representation without giving women the tools they need to succeed, which emboldens those that wish to claim women are less capable. Support needs to be provided from the ground up to balance for historical injustices.
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Probably the most obvious but… Just listen to women. Men tend to not listen to or respect women when they are in that hypercompetitive mode driven by testosterone imbalance. Too many (especially Western) men worship at the alter of logic and reason while ignoring emotional intelligence or right brain development in general, at the expense of women and others.
Patriarchy fails both men and women in its own unique way so development on both sides is needed to create a more inclusive world.
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Removed by mod
What industry?
EDIT: Original comment was something like “My workplace is 80% men, so it wouldn’t be feasible to put a woman in a higher position”
Like… dude… come on… come ooooon…
My industry is 80% men and i’ve been lead tech in multiple workplaces
thanks for your comment, but unfortunately this community is for women only - hope you understand ❤️
