Its not merely an “opinion”, its nearly a universally held moral axiomatic fact that doing something to someone without their consent is, by default, wrong. Maybe you disagree, but most people do not. They usually just don’t do any moral analysis to authentically reach the conclusion that birth itself is a moral injustice to the newly born. Because most people are willfully ignorant if the truth is uncomfortable.
I do stuff for me and people I care about, but I still resent even the expectation that I owe anyone anything, that I was born to inevitably one day die, and that I, having not choose to be here need to just “suck it up” as an adult and be a productive part of a natalist society I largely deem responsible for the grave injustice of anyone’s birth.
I could kill myself and be in the right. I wont do that because death is a lovecraftian horror to me, but I could.
That said, alternatively, if I could indeed live forever I’d feel a little less disgusted with existence. At least I wouldn’t have to face my mortality.
Its not merely an “opinion”, its nearly a universally held moral axiomatic fact that doing something to someone without their consent is, by default, wrong.
You’re having an entirely different conversation than the one I’m having. I’m not arguing the ethical or morality of childbirth. I’m simply pointing out that after you are an adult, all the choices and responsibilities of making your life what you want it to be (or not to be) become yours irrespective of what happened to you prior in childhood. Thats it. No its not fair, but life isn’t either.
and that I, having not choose to be here need to just “suck it up” as an adult and be a productive part of a natalist society I largely deem responsible for the grave injustice of anyone’s birth.
This is absolutely your choice. There is no requirement that you are a “productive” member of society. You have the power to withdraw from society entirely if you like. There are dead towns scattered all over the world where you could simply walk into a house and start living there and no one would likely know or care for years or decades. You could scratch out a subsistence life eating whatever you could grow in the ground. You might never see another person in your life before you die (likely of preventable injury or disease). If thats what is most important to you in life, you can make that happen.
Another complicating factor is that, I do not believe in free will.
So even though that technically means I can reject your choice based morality as well. I’ll concede that it also contradicts my negative emotional feelings towards all parents and my feelings of injustice stemming from natalism and pro-birth being rational. Since… you know, they can’t exactly meaningfully choose to be parents because choice is an illusion.
Another complicating factor is that, I do not believe in free will.
So even though that technically means I can reject your choice based morality as well
Most definitions I’ve heard describing the lack of free will don’t mean that you can’t do something, but rather you were destined to do that thing. As in, it isn’t the rejection of the outcome being true, but rather that you would never not do that thing was not in the cards.
That doesn’t run afoul of what I described above. If you want to go live like a hermit away from society “lack of free will” doesn’t prevent that, it just means that you were going to live like a hermit anyway.
Do you hold a different definition of “no free will”?
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.” My answer is no.
My issue isn’t even just that “We live in a society” (lol), my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
My issue with free will is that its a gibberish concept that fundamentally makes no sense. Not that its “free will” vs “pre-destination”
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter.
A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
EDIT: I thought more about my response here after a time and realized I was frustrated with the direction you were taking the conversation. So I apologize. I am trying to have a practical discussion, and you took it in a metaphysical direction. There’s nothing wrong with a metaphsycial discussion, but that wasn’t what it started with and wasn’t the topic I was intersted in exploring. I’ll leave my response below unedited, but if you sense my frustration I wanted you to know why and to know I retract my frustration even if my opinions still stand.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.”
I said nothing about how to define happiness for you. You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society (“productive member” etc). I was offering an alternative that is available to you. I can’t tell you what is going to make you happy. Thats not for me to determine. Thats one of those responsibility that is on you as an adult.
my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
Wait, again with society? So which is it? Are you upset by society or not? If you wanted to march yourself off into a desert, and just lay down you likely could. I’d prefer you don’t, though. Society will have no expectation for you out there. If you get cold or hungry that has nothing to do with society though. You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter. A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
This is my opinion of course, but that is a straight up bonkers take. It is completely illogical and unreasonable. It is defeatist in the worst and most disingenuous kind of way.
What it sounds like you’re saying is (and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you): “If I cannot choose every aspect of my being, even the things divorced from the boundaries of the physics of our known universe, I am not really able to make any decision on my own.”
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.
Its not merely an “opinion”, its nearly a universally held moral axiomatic fact that doing something to someone without their consent is, by default, wrong. Maybe you disagree, but most people do not. They usually just don’t do any moral analysis to authentically reach the conclusion that birth itself is a moral injustice to the newly born. Because most people are willfully ignorant if the truth is uncomfortable.
I do stuff for me and people I care about, but I still resent even the expectation that I owe anyone anything, that I was born to inevitably one day die, and that I, having not choose to be here need to just “suck it up” as an adult and be a productive part of a natalist society I largely deem responsible for the grave injustice of anyone’s birth.
I could kill myself and be in the right. I wont do that because death is a lovecraftian horror to me, but I could.
That said, alternatively, if I could indeed live forever I’d feel a little less disgusted with existence. At least I wouldn’t have to face my mortality.
You’re having an entirely different conversation than the one I’m having. I’m not arguing the ethical or morality of childbirth. I’m simply pointing out that after you are an adult, all the choices and responsibilities of making your life what you want it to be (or not to be) become yours irrespective of what happened to you prior in childhood. Thats it. No its not fair, but life isn’t either.
This is absolutely your choice. There is no requirement that you are a “productive” member of society. You have the power to withdraw from society entirely if you like. There are dead towns scattered all over the world where you could simply walk into a house and start living there and no one would likely know or care for years or decades. You could scratch out a subsistence life eating whatever you could grow in the ground. You might never see another person in your life before you die (likely of preventable injury or disease). If thats what is most important to you in life, you can make that happen.
Well, I should have said this earlier.
Another complicating factor is that, I do not believe in free will.
So even though that technically means I can reject your choice based morality as well. I’ll concede that it also contradicts my negative emotional feelings towards all parents and my feelings of injustice stemming from natalism and pro-birth being rational. Since… you know, they can’t exactly meaningfully choose to be parents because choice is an illusion.
I’m still angry and depressed though.
Most definitions I’ve heard describing the lack of free will don’t mean that you can’t do something, but rather you were destined to do that thing. As in, it isn’t the rejection of the outcome being true, but rather that you would never not do that thing was not in the cards.
That doesn’t run afoul of what I described above. If you want to go live like a hermit away from society “lack of free will” doesn’t prevent that, it just means that you were going to live like a hermit anyway.
Do you hold a different definition of “no free will”?
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.” My answer is no.
My issue isn’t even just that “We live in a society” (lol), my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
My issue with free will is that its a gibberish concept that fundamentally makes no sense. Not that its “free will” vs “pre-destination”
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter.
A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
EDIT: I thought more about my response here after a time and realized I was frustrated with the direction you were taking the conversation. So I apologize. I am trying to have a practical discussion, and you took it in a metaphysical direction. There’s nothing wrong with a metaphsycial discussion, but that wasn’t what it started with and wasn’t the topic I was intersted in exploring. I’ll leave my response below unedited, but if you sense my frustration I wanted you to know why and to know I retract my frustration even if my opinions still stand.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
I said nothing about how to define happiness for you. You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society (“productive member” etc). I was offering an alternative that is available to you. I can’t tell you what is going to make you happy. Thats not for me to determine. Thats one of those responsibility that is on you as an adult.
Wait, again with society? So which is it? Are you upset by society or not? If you wanted to march yourself off into a desert, and just lay down you likely could. I’d prefer you don’t, though. Society will have no expectation for you out there. If you get cold or hungry that has nothing to do with society though. You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
This is my opinion of course, but that is a straight up bonkers take. It is completely illogical and unreasonable. It is defeatist in the worst and most disingenuous kind of way.
What it sounds like you’re saying is (and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you): “If I cannot choose every aspect of my being, even the things divorced from the boundaries of the physics of our known universe, I am not really able to make any decision on my own.”
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.