Another complicating factor is that, I do not believe in free will.
So even though that technically means I can reject your choice based morality as well. I’ll concede that it also contradicts my negative emotional feelings towards all parents and my feelings of injustice stemming from natalism and pro-birth being rational. Since… you know, they can’t exactly meaningfully choose to be parents because choice is an illusion.
Another complicating factor is that, I do not believe in free will.
So even though that technically means I can reject your choice based morality as well
Most definitions I’ve heard describing the lack of free will don’t mean that you can’t do something, but rather you were destined to do that thing. As in, it isn’t the rejection of the outcome being true, but rather that you would never not do that thing was not in the cards.
That doesn’t run afoul of what I described above. If you want to go live like a hermit away from society “lack of free will” doesn’t prevent that, it just means that you were going to live like a hermit anyway.
Do you hold a different definition of “no free will”?
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.” My answer is no.
My issue isn’t even just that “We live in a society” (lol), my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
My issue with free will is that its a gibberish concept that fundamentally makes no sense. Not that its “free will” vs “pre-destination”
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter.
A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
EDIT: I thought more about my response here after a time and realized I was frustrated with the direction you were taking the conversation. So I apologize. I am trying to have a practical discussion, and you took it in a metaphysical direction. There’s nothing wrong with a metaphsycial discussion, but that wasn’t what it started with and wasn’t the topic I was intersted in exploring. I’ll leave my response below unedited, but if you sense my frustration I wanted you to know why and to know I retract my frustration even if my opinions still stand.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.”
I said nothing about how to define happiness for you. You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society (“productive member” etc). I was offering an alternative that is available to you. I can’t tell you what is going to make you happy. Thats not for me to determine. Thats one of those responsibility that is on you as an adult.
my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
Wait, again with society? So which is it? Are you upset by society or not? If you wanted to march yourself off into a desert, and just lay down you likely could. I’d prefer you don’t, though. Society will have no expectation for you out there. If you get cold or hungry that has nothing to do with society though. You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter. A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
This is my opinion of course, but that is a straight up bonkers take. It is completely illogical and unreasonable. It is defeatist in the worst and most disingenuous kind of way.
What it sounds like you’re saying is (and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you): “If I cannot choose every aspect of my being, even the things divorced from the boundaries of the physics of our known universe, I am not really able to make any decision on my own.”
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.
Well, I should have said this earlier.
Another complicating factor is that, I do not believe in free will.
So even though that technically means I can reject your choice based morality as well. I’ll concede that it also contradicts my negative emotional feelings towards all parents and my feelings of injustice stemming from natalism and pro-birth being rational. Since… you know, they can’t exactly meaningfully choose to be parents because choice is an illusion.
I’m still angry and depressed though.
Most definitions I’ve heard describing the lack of free will don’t mean that you can’t do something, but rather you were destined to do that thing. As in, it isn’t the rejection of the outcome being true, but rather that you would never not do that thing was not in the cards.
That doesn’t run afoul of what I described above. If you want to go live like a hermit away from society “lack of free will” doesn’t prevent that, it just means that you were going to live like a hermit anyway.
Do you hold a different definition of “no free will”?
I wasn’t taking the “living as a hermit” as a good faith suggestion. We’re you actually serious? Because that’s “If you are unhappy with human existence, go live a worse life than you are already living.” My answer is no.
My issue isn’t even just that “We live in a society” (lol), my issue is that society produced my existence and expects me to accept it as my problem.
My issue with free will is that its a gibberish concept that fundamentally makes no sense. Not that its “free will” vs “pre-destination”
My definition of “no free will” is that our “will” is based in physical reality, which is primarily made up of highly predictable phenomena, with a extremely and laughably tiny influence from quantum mechanics, which is metaphorically random dice rolls anyway so it doesn’t matter.
A better way to look at my stance though is more to ask yourself, “What is your will actually free from?” If you think there is a metaphysical aspect to our will even then that implies that our will is then determined via the metaphysical and still isn’t really free.
That said, it kind of ties together with the whole “can’t choose to be born” issue, because its impossible to choose to even exist or in what environmental context and with what physical body you were born into you can’t reasonably say we ever make any true decisions. Our existence stems from a domino effect starting at the big bang (or maybe something before that)
EDIT: I thought more about my response here after a time and realized I was frustrated with the direction you were taking the conversation. So I apologize. I am trying to have a practical discussion, and you took it in a metaphysical direction. There’s nothing wrong with a metaphsycial discussion, but that wasn’t what it started with and wasn’t the topic I was intersted in exploring. I’ll leave my response below unedited, but if you sense my frustration I wanted you to know why and to know I retract my frustration even if my opinions still stand.
I hope I haven’t dampened your day. That wasn’t my intent.
I said nothing about how to define happiness for you. You made statements that you didn’t like responsibilities of society (“productive member” etc). I was offering an alternative that is available to you. I can’t tell you what is going to make you happy. Thats not for me to determine. Thats one of those responsibility that is on you as an adult.
Wait, again with society? So which is it? Are you upset by society or not? If you wanted to march yourself off into a desert, and just lay down you likely could. I’d prefer you don’t, though. Society will have no expectation for you out there. If you get cold or hungry that has nothing to do with society though. You can’t reasonably expect the benefits of society (readily available warmth and food) without interacting with it though.
Okay, fine. There’s no problem with that as an abstract concept as someone trying to apply reason to randomness (or order if you see it that way instead). Is that an actionable ethos though? Does your theory have any practical application in your own life? Does it lead you to action (or inaction)? It certainly doesn’t have to, but I’m not sure how useful it is as a guiding principle of understanding the universe if it doesn’t.
This is my opinion of course, but that is a straight up bonkers take. It is completely illogical and unreasonable. It is defeatist in the worst and most disingenuous kind of way.
What it sounds like you’re saying is (and please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you): “If I cannot choose every aspect of my being, even the things divorced from the boundaries of the physics of our known universe, I am not really able to make any decision on my own.”
I’ll be honest, I have serious concerns for you and what may have happened to you for you to arrive at that conclusion.