Not too long ago, regulations on CBD changed in Germany leading to a plethora of products containing it. As someone who occasionally needs pain medication, I tried some of the products to avoid regular pain killers (ibu). Especially on days with lighter pain, I wished for an alternative to the sledgehammer meds. But I was left standing in the rain. I didn’t feel any effect. That’s why I would love to hear from your experiments and experience.
You’re getting a lot of answers from Americans. Be aware that CBD oil sold in Germany (Dm, Rossmann, etc.) almost certainly doesn’t contain significant levels of THC.
The evidence doesn’t seem to suggest CBD alone is effective in pain management:
Cannabis oil that contains THC is almost certainly a different matter.
Thank you for the heads up! Half way through the answers I asked myself if a German community would have been a better pace to ask in terms of obtaining the substances, but the effect should be globally available I guess.
Are you informed if the latter is legally available in Germany?
THC is illegal, at least for now. That’s what they’re aiming to change at the moment.
Medical marijuana is legal in Germany. If OP needs it for health reasons he could go through legitimate process.
I heard it’s legal in theory, but super complicated to impossible to get a prescription.
That’s surprising given how close you are to recreational use legalization. Here in Poland MM is legal but we don’t have any producers and get fair chunk from Germany (Aurora Deutschland, 420 Pharma).
At the same time medical marijuana business got so silly that you basically go to a website, fill out a form, pay ~€20 fee and get an e-prescription in a couple of hours. There’s been some ineffective attempts at cracking down on it in the past weeks that resulted in slight fee increase.
Only with CBD products bought at a marijuana dispensary. The crap they have at gas stations and the like does absolutely nothing.
My favorite has been Mary Jane’s subliminal tincture. It’s CBD oil in a 1:16 ratio of THC and unlike the other subliminals I’ve tried, they put some flavor in it so it’s like butterscotch and not gross fish oil like flavor that gives me heartburn.
There’s been some research and basically those products are unregulated and a good amount of them have zero or negligible actual CBD in them.
Some claim like, grams of CBD and they have zero in them it’s just oil. It’s basically homeopathic CBD.
It truly matters who you source it from, biggest lesson someone new needs to learn
CBD’s apparently not really effective for general pain relief, but there’s some data that suggest that it’s effective for neuropathic pain.
I take a full spectrum extract specifically for neuropathic pain and it’s been moderately helpful, and since it’s also immunomodulatory it seems to help some with flare-ups of my autoimmune disease. Not a miracle cure or anything, but it’s been better than nothing and definitely doesn’t make me feel as terrible as the more, uh, pharmaceutical options for treating neuropathic pain such as gabapentin, so I’ve stuck with it.
After consulting my favorite search engine for what neuropathic pain is (not your fault, but language barrier of a non-native speaker) I guess this is what I’m looking for! How do you obtain your CBD? Pharmacy or online?
Online store. It’s Finnish and CBD’s not strictly speaking legal here, but it’s not exactly illegal either and authorities have outright said they don’t know wtf they should be doing with this stuff – so they have the label “small batch collectible product, not for consumption” on their products to cover their asses 😄
Is it funny or sad that a finish collectible affects you positively health-wise? Sounds weird but hey. Sometimes laws are lagging behind so much it’s annoying…
Yeah, especially here. Finland’s pretty conservative compared to the other Nordics
I’m having trouble finding it, but I ran across a study a few months ago whose results pointed to greater pain relief gains when CBD was consumed with THC, and that both substances alone do less to “relieve” pain.
I wouldn’t say it helps relieve pain as much as it lets you be distracted from pain.
Also, personally, when I have used CBD on it’s own, it never did anything for me at all. It only ever worked in combination with THC.
Finally, people taking other medications need to be careful about taking CBD.
The vast majority of medications are broken down by enzyme CYP3A4, an enzyme that CBD inhibits.
I am taking a life-saving/life-altering medication to manage a severe disease. It is handled in my body by CYP3A4. Meaning I can really fuck up my medication dosage by taking CBD on its own, because it will inhibit the ability of CYP3A4 to ingest the drug.
User [email protected] helpfully pointed out that grapefruit inhibits CYP3A4 as well, so if you’re not supposed to eat grapefruit, you should probably also avoid CBD. I hadn’t even made that connection myself, very astute, pizza_rolls!
Thank you for pointing that out!
InI’m in the happy place of not having to take anything else on a regular basis, but it sure makes sense to keep the heads up of required.Absolutely. I am glad I did the research myself and stumbled across this fact, because when I was prescribed this drug I bought a lot of CBD chocolates, thinking they would help. I was surprised that sooooooooo many prescribed medications use CYP3A4 as a pathway to enter the body, and how this isn’t discussed more often. I really haven’t seen very much discussion at all about how CBD can inhibit the effectiveness of a whole host of prescription drugs.
Anyway, cheers, glad to be sharing the info!
I used to take CBD every day for anxiety and I only found this out after a couple years so thanks for bringing it up. If your medication says to avoid grapefruit, then you probably should not take CBD
If your medication says to avoid grapefruit, then you probably should not take CBD
I didn’t even make that connection, but yeah, exactly! Grapefruit inhibits the exact same enzyme. That’s a really good way to know, I’m going to add that to my post.
That is good to know. Guess I gotta research how my meds work
My wife has chronic neuropathic pain, and the CBD gummies seem to help her sleep. They don’t seem to overtly reduce the pain, but maybe make her less anxious about it.
Thank you! I think, this is an aspect I tend to underestimate: the anxiousness pain causes. It is not affecting me much of what I experience, but deep down, it is a thing.
Pain is a really interesting thing, and there’s an undeniably subjective aspect of it. My wife has had a chronic pain condition since 2008, and one thing I’ve noticed it’s that her pain is worse when she’s stressed, PMSing, or whatever. There’s no objective way to measure pain, and I think at least part of what’s happening is that her ability to deal with one level of pain gets better or worse depending on her mental state.
I think of it like going out and finding you have a flat tire. If there’s not much going on, you’re not rushed, you had a good night’s sleep, etc., you might just think “Well, that’s annoying,” and deal with it. If you’re sleep deprived, your kid is sick, and you’re under a bunch of pressure at work, you might just want to sit on the curb and cry. Same situation, but your ability to deal with it is different.
Pain is like that, I think. If you’re in a bad place, things seem to hurt more because your ability to deal with the pain is less.
CBD has zero effect on me. However, THC ramps my anxiety up to 1000. Maybe I’m just a freak of nature?
THC will cause anxiety and paranoia if your tolerance is low or you use particularly stimulating cannabis strain. This is where CBD is very useful because it decreases psychedelic effect. You can use either a balanced strain (equal or similar THC / CBD content) or supplement CBD in other form.
Okay I’m freshman enough to this topic to ask: how do you know what balance you aim for with regards to pain killing?
Start with a 1:1 and adjust from there.
Nah, everyone reacts differently to it, the ones that enjoy it are just a lot more vocal about it.
Personally THC has varied effects for me. Some strains make me space the fuck out (even more so than usual), as if I’m just skipping forward through time, no background thoughts, nothing. Just flash and I’m 20 minutes later. Others make me extremely anxious. Some make me spiral into a really bad depressive ‘everyone hates me. I hate me’ state. Some cause me to pass out, and not in the ‘mmm good sleep’ way, just straight up collapse to the ground pass out. I’ve found very few that have positive effects for me.
So you’re definitely not unusual! The THC anxiety is very real
I think the important distinction here is the percentages of THC present with whatever you’re taking.
If you and @danielton are just talking about getting stoned with cannabis, well yeah it’s going to get you high.
If you guys are talking about taking CBD compound supplements with THC present, that’s very different. THC at low percentages have little to no actual psychoactive effects (talking sub 10% which is way higher than any CBD-specific product can legally be sold as). THC only acts as a catalyst in this fashion.
CDB, CBG, CBC, and CBN, which all occur in different stages of degradation of the THC and CBD compound molecules. CBN is one of the last stages of degradation of THC and is associated with the almost-narcoleptic like sleep and is generally responsible for times that weed knocks you out, which is what I’m guessing happens for you! Not to be one of those vocal enjoyers, moreso highlighting the science behind why you felt the way you have with various strains. It’s certainly the high doses of THC affecting you, but without any CBD compounds there’s nothing to ease the THC.
It’s similar to how we can take an NSAID and an analgesic. Of course we can just have one or the other to get the specific effect, but taking them combined delivers a wider range of effects that go beyond what they were originally meant for. edit The difference is that we have an endocannabinoid system that’s meant to be active and using these theoretically helping prevent the issues in the first place - whereas NSAID and analgesics something we take as a suppressive.
Good to know. I tried three different types of it three different times, and one hit and my anxiety was ramped up to 1000. I hated every minute of it.
People I know all tell me marijuana is this universal Good Thing™ that mellows everybody out so I definitely felt like a freak of nature.
My wife was struggling with anxiety attacks from PTSD. She tried a few different CBD blends before settling on a pure CBD isolate with only flavoring added. She would buy it at a pharmacy that made their own specialty medications in-house. She would take it first thing in the morning and if she felt anxiety coming on later in the day. It really helped make her anxiety a little more manageable.
She eventually found a good psychiatrist that prescribed anti anxiety medication, and she hasn’t really needed the CDB since. But it was very helpful for the few months that it took to find a psychiatrist and medication that worked for her.
Be careful. I suffer from anxiety too and used CBD for a while. At some point I was prescribed meds after having a few panic attacks due to some life issues. Those meds were benzodiazepines. That shit is amazing in the moment. Might be the most impactful medication I’ve ever taken. But they are easily the most addictive thing I have ever used (and I was a fairly troubled youth if you know what I mean). Long term they are awful for memory and may increase the odds of dimentia significantly. And withdrawal is some of the most severe of any addictive substance. Talking seizures and possible death from going cold turkey if you’ve been on for a long time and higherish dosage. Really only alcohol compares as far as withdrawal symptoms. Heroine and cocaine are less severe.
So all I’m saying is that if they are benzos, they are not a good long term solution in spite of the fact that they work very well. All benzos labels say they should only be given for very short term management, but doctor’s hand out that shit like candy.
Cognitive behavioral therapy is absolutely great for anxiety and requires less or no drugs. Also, there are some other options for long term management that aren’t so dangerous. Hopefully it is one of those if she takes it regularly.
Funny you should say that. She was prescribed Xanax in the short term to get her to the point where we could find a long term solution. And much like you described, it was great for the few hours after she took it. But her body craved more after that, and it made it so she couldn’t sleep without it. It completely fucked her mood. It was awful and terrifying. She got off of it, but it was a long and painful process. We luckily had an amazing friend who had gone through the same thing come live with us for 2 months to help take care of her. And the doctors were so good about giving her a weaning plan.
She’s now on an antidepressant as a long term solution. Idr which type. And she has been off Xanax for 9 months.
Yes, they stop my panic attacks and help me sleep at night. But I’m super picky on brand. I use only lab verified, US companies that have been in the business since before it was legalized nationwide. A lot of growers and such are being bought up by corporations and even Chinese companies and quality is going in the pisser. And I’ve even gotten a nightmare experience that had me trapped under the influence of something that definitely wasn’t cannabis based at all.
I find CBD oil helps with anxiety. Not a severe case of anxiety, but it does take the edge off.
Chronic migraine sufferer here. Like 25+ days a MONTH, over 5 on the pain scale, plus all the other fun symptoms.
I had tried literally every other drug on the market for migraine, even some off label, except Botox. The newest class of migraine drugs wasn’t on the market yet. History tells me I likely will not do well with Botox, so as a last ditch effort, before trying it, I decided to experiment with weed again.
Life changing is an understatement. Went from most of the month, where I felt like I was slowly dying, to having MAYBE 2 relatively mild migraines per YEAR.
Certain strains work better for me as an abortive, than others, but just having it in my system daily gave me my life back. It doesn’t seem to matter whether is a 1:1 (CBD:THC) or just a regular old mostly THC strain, it just works for me.
Have you tried cgrp antagonists? I tried literally everything to the point where multiple neurologists said they couldn’t help me. I was using THC for a long time for my migraines but I was still suffering. With cgrp antagonists I feel 100% normal and it works every time, even if it takes longer if I take it too late.
It’s worth trying a sample if you haven’t, because it’s a world of difference between being high with a migraine and just not having one anymore IMO
Nurtec is approved for preventative now too
CBD never did shit for migraines for me, only anxiety
I have not. As I eluded to, I haven’t tried any of the news classes of drugs, as I found something that worked well for me, before they became available.
I was in the same boat though. I’ve seen more neurons than I can count over my multiple decades of life, and all of them just throw their hands up and say they tried but can’t help me. The last one, left it as you’ll do Botox or I’m done with you.
Thankfully, for me, I just need to have small hit every night ( not enough to even see psychoactive effects) to mostly keep them away.
As for abortive, there are a few strains I know will almost always stop anything in its tracks, and if for some reason it doesn’t, well being stoned out of my gourd works too.
Thank you and I’m so happy for you it helps!
Cbd doesn’t help my migraines, but cbg does.
Honestly, I don’t even need to get stoned for it to help. Just a small puff off the vape, once a day, and I’m good to go. I haven’t bothered to try playing with the not thc stuff.
The rare instance a migraine starts, at least weed is an incredibly predictable thing. A migraine can range from “eh I can power through” to “hmmm Half the vision in my right eye is gone”. I’ll take being stoned lol.
From what you write, stoned is a positive side effect of the whole thing isn’t it? Out do you think this is the main aspect of why the migraine is so much better bearable to you?
No, I don’t think so. As I said, I don’t even need to get high. Just a small hit every night (not enough to have psychoactive effects) keeps them pretty much away.
In the rare instance I get a painful migraine, I can almost always stop it completely with some specific strains. If I can’t stop it, then yeah, being stoned out of my gourd is a positive side effect. lol.
Interestingly enough, when I used to drink heavily, I NEVER had migraines. Not so much as a headache, no matter how heavily I drank either.
I do still get silent migraines (so some of the other symptoms, minus the pain) sometimes, but they are the least of my worries.
Cbg vape or sublingual oil for me - doesn’t completely kill it, but it’ll knock it out for a few hours so I can finish work or get some sleep. The vape works faster. There used to be a guy on r/hempflowers that started using CBG every day and said it cut his frequency in half. It’s really great to have a solution that That works better than the prescription migraine meds and doesn’t make me as spacey.
I think you need to find your dosage and stay on it to help with inflammation which can also reduce pain. I took a lot when I lifted weights regularly. But I ended up making it myself to make it affordable.
I’d use a reputable company. Some seem to try to keep costs down–I sometimes would buy theirs for convenience. (I would use an decarb/infusion machine and eventually bought an extraction machine. Basically cold alcohol wash hemp then evaporate the alcohol back out).
Thank you! This gives me some highschool vibes of chemistry. The useful aspects of it at least. Is it fool safe or would you recommend starting with ready products?
Weed in jar. Jar in freezer. 190 proof ethanol in freezer. Next day- mix, shake, freezer for one Netflix show, strain through strainer, strain through cheesecloth or coffee filter. Use an electric (NOT GAS!) appliance (rice cooker, crock pot, air fryer, dehydrator, or fan) to evaporate the alcohol. When you have a dark, sticky goo, add a little coconut oil for viscosity and heat to 250f, stirring occasionally until the tiny carbonation bubbles slow down.
Thank you for you recipe! That sounds manageable - as soon as the base substance is legally available here 😉 I will keep an eye on that - it is supposed to be anytime soon…
This is a tricky question. I’m inclined to have a positive opinion about CBD, but if I’m completely honest I don’t feel much of anything from it solo. I’ve taken CBD by itself multiple times and it always just seemed like a placebo. I think CBD and THC together have a great synergy, but it really misses the mark when I only have the one without psychoactive effects.
On the other hand, I’ve had friends swear by CBD tinctures. They were doing large doses (like 50mg+) daily and claimed it had all sorts of benefits for their chronic pain or upset stomach. I never tried doing doses that big regularly just because of the cost and my previous experiences leaving me dissatisfied.
For what it’s worth, Extract Labs is one of the sources I’ve had recommended to me by a trusted friend.
Thank you for passing on the recommendation! I’m a little scared to go with any significant fraction of THC… Maybe my dose was just too low so far.
IRC you can’t even buy CBD oil with a significant amount of THC in Germany.
Honestly, if you live near the border with NL or know someone, you’re better off smoking a joint or making some brownies, or buying actual cannabis oil with THC from time to time. It’ll make you high if you take too much, but IME does actually work unlike CBD alone which has little scientific evidence of working.
Sure, drugs bad. But honestly, weed is far less dangerous than alcohol. IME also tends to wear off after max 4 hours even if you smoked far too much, unlike alcohol where you can be slightly drunk the next day, not notice, and end up driving drunk. Ibuprofen really isn’t great used longterm. Neither is paracetamol. Be careful about interactions with other medication though.
Buy some actual cannabis oil, make some brownies, experiment how much is needed to get you high. Take a little less than that.
And hope Germany fully legalizes soon. Even if you never use weed, if some people smoke a joint rather than drink, it’ll result in less vomit and fighting.
Yes CBD and THC is synergistic but that’s not the end of that story. You should try two things:
-
Buy actual quality CBD and CBG oil
-
put each under your tongue for ~90 seconds, add THC if you want
You don’t need to chug a bottle of oil and the end goal isn’t to feel high it doesn’t manage pain the way THC or other pain killers do
-
On the other hand, I’ve had friends swear by CBD tinctures. They were doing large doses (like 50mg+) daily and claimed it had all sorts of benefits for their chronic pain or upset stomach.
That’s because their endocannabinoid system is actively in use, unlike people who do not take CBD supplements. We metabolized CBD very well and our bodies will use it when it’s there, so for a lot of people taking CBD they need to jump-start the endocannabinoid system to start processing it.
Often times people will take 1000mg for the first week (or two), then cut that in half to 500mg, then in half for until you are down to 50mg or 15mg doses. Normally we’d have been getting our CBD compounds from the things we eat that eat hemp, something that was prevalent as a feed in the U.S. and is still prevalent in other countries (Nepal, for example). However since we stopped using hemp, animals stopped passing on CBD compounds to us and here we are today with a society full of symptoms of a non-working endocannabinoid system (and well, signs of lead poisoning but lets just move past that…) which include - chronic nerve pain, gastrointestinal issues, issues with insomnia, mood and anxiety. You know, everything that we attribute to just the daily struggles of society today.
Of course, they most likely are just that, but it seems pretty crazy to me that we have a whole system in our body that is essentially on the backburner with very high correlation to many of the health problems.
Just remember, don’t be afraid of THC. They need each other to work effectively, and THC doesn’t have to mean high. Obviously, if it’s a legality issue that’s a different story, but in regards to an edible that has >5% or uses the letters LOC then don’t even think about it for a second - it’s fine. Think of its present as the catalyst for the reaction.
Germany allows max 0.2% THC. Ie. might as well have no THC at all.
Realistically, I think CBD oil sold in much of Europe is a scam because of similar regulation.
You’re better off buying actual weed, but adjusting the dose, than wasting your money on what they sell in health shops here.
the problem is the legality of other cannibinoids where you live …
- from the states in the US where cannabis has been legalized – neither CBD nor THC will show their full effects in isolation, they each help to augment the other – so even something like a tiny amount of THC added to CBD (ex. 20:1 CBD to THC) will drastically enhance the CBD effects
- there are two primary (and a lot of secondary) pain systems within the body – one of them responds better to opioids, the other responds better to
cannibinoidscannabinoids – everyone’s different and responds differently so it requires a knowledgeable medical professional who hasn’t bought into US’s “reefer madness” propaganda that’s been foisted off onto the rest of the world
I’m in bed with a fractured wrist and an opoid intolerance/allergy. Where can I learn more about the dominant pain systems/different solutions you mentioned?
proviso: I am not medically trained and most of what I’ve picked up has been informally through the American cannabis communities and legalization efforts
and options for dealing with pain in the US are a hot topic item – you need a medical professional that is knowledgeable about ALL the options but doctors get their licensing at the federal level, not the state level, so they risk their license to even talk about cannabis
from what I’ve stumbled across, opioids work better on acute pain (ex. fractures) and cannabinoids work better on chronic pain (ex. fibromyalgia, stress) – ie. cannabis will help with aches and tension, allowing you to get a night’s sleep – but for direct pain from the fracture, you might be stuck with NSAIDs which have their own slew of issues
I know almost nothing about the other pain systems, but Wikipedia generally has some good starting points
- cannabinoid
- “Before the 1980s, cannabinoids were speculated to produce their physiological and behavioral effects via nonspecific interaction with cell membranes, instead of interacting with specific membrane-bound receptors. The discovery of the first cannabinoid receptors in the 1980s helped to resolve this debate. These receptors are common in animals. Two known cannabinoid receptors are termed CB1 and CB2, with mounting evidence of more. The human brain has more cannabinoid receptors than any other G protein-coupled receptor (GPCR) type.”
- endocannabinoid system
- “The Endocannabinoid System (ECS) regulates many functions of the human body. The ECS plays an important role in multiple aspects of neural functions, including the control of movement and motor coordination, learning and memory, emotion and motivation, addictive-like behavior and pain modulation, among others.”
- CB1 receptor
- CB2 receptor
- cannabinoid
Thank you for your balanced thoughts! Well your first point kinda might be an issue. I guess I haven’t dived deep enough into this topic to answer whether these mixtures are legally available here. Speaking of it: can you (or someone you know 😉) feel any psychedelic effect of the THC with a 20:1 ratio?
I tried to convince trained professionals twice to go the mentioned route with me. Instead, the looked for me as if I asked for a roofie on the house. So that is another issue…
- most people (depending on tolerance) don’t notice much psychoactive effect from THC below ~5mg
- from Wikipedia, it looks like in Germany you have to get a medical pass to get access to whole cannabis or THC
- you will get a similar reaction from doctors in the US
- in the US, doctors are licensed at the federal level, cannabis is legalized at the state level – doctors risk their license even talking about cannabis regardless of its legality in the state they operate in – no trained professional is going to risk their livelihood
- most of the world is still victim of the US’s “reefer madness” propaganda campaign (thanks to Nixon and his “War on Drugs”) and it still bears the stigma of “the devil’s weed” – so, unless you find someone knowledgeable, you can expect the attitude of “asking for a roofie” to be the standard response
Yes, I used CBD herb (hemp) along with a dynavap to quit smoking: It worked great! I still vape dry herb partly to relax and partly to quell any urges for cigarettes since a dynavap is very similar in shape and use. I have been cigarette free for 5 years now!
If you’re taking any other meds, speak to a doctor before you try it.
I have a chronic illness that led to organ transplantation, and cannabis would interfere with one of my rejection meds. That would have caused me much bigger problems than the pain that I was trying to stop.
Unfortunately, cannabis has an almost cult like mythology around it. There are lots of people who will tell you that it cures everything, from mild pain to every type of cancer, and will even clean and polish your car 😉
I hope you find what you need. Good luck 🙂
