Europe needs to be strong enough to stand on its own at all levels, but I think it’s a pretty bad idea for it to become a neo-Imperial power in the style of America.
For all the great things of Democracy, the one thing people forget in their rosy propaganda-tainted view of it (living inside of it, we’re constantly bombarde by political messaging about its greatness) is that by definition even the most perfect Democracy only has the duty to represent the will of its citizens, not of people who are not citizens of that Democracy.
So there is no ideological element in Democracy to make it less nasty at exploiting people from other countries than authoritarian regimes.
All this to say that Europe shouldn’t get into the business of power projection like the US has done for decades (leaving a long trail of death, suffering and destitution all over the World, especially the Middle East and Latin America).
And I say this as an European and somebody who would stand to gain indirectly from Europe going systematically (it’s already done by businesses and some governments in it, just not openly and systematically) into the business of exploiting non-Europeans.
A peacefull when not provoked giant would probably be the best philosphy for a strong Europe, IMHO.
(Edit: for avoidance of doubt I want to state that for me Russia trying to advance westwards by invading Ukraine counts as a provocation)
And I say this as an European and somebody who would stand to gain indirectly from Europe going systematically (it’s already done by businesses and some governments in it, just not openly and systematically) into the business of exploiting non-Europeans.
One great myth of imperial power plays is that the exploitation benefits the imperial power. It often doesn’t. The scramble for Africa, for example, was a net economic drain for all the great powers that participated. Every little thing they gained was generally lost as they spent immense amounts of money on being manipulated into useless conflicts by client chiefs. Similar dynamic for England in India during the later periods and associated areas (the British conquest of Myanmar was particularly useless). The only real benefit is economic dominance and the ability to trade (like that was seen in Singapore and Canton). For all it’s imperialism and interventionism from the Philippines to Korea to Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq, America hasn’t seen a gain. Most of the moves by the great powers only benefits a select few of private citizens while the state spends lives and treasure on conquest and subsequent administration for an illegitimate government that becomes corrupt and fragile.
If course, I’m sure it has little to do with readily available coal veins and early centralization that allowed for rapid industrialization that then powered the colonial boondoggle in the first place that primarily enriched private interests. That’s why the empire still exists right? It couldn’t be a prime example of imperial overreach.
I think you’re mistaking my intention. I’m saying that imperialism is ultimately self defeating and has been throughout history. It’s a fundamentally doomed path.
That will never happen because EU has already failed multiple times.
The 2008 recession and accompanying austerity was the first. This austerity is directly responsible for the rise of far right in EU.
The second were the multiple economic crisises from EU countries like Greece, etc.
The third was Brexit.
The fourth was China dumping all its steel.
The fifth was it failure to hold Poland and Hungry accountable for democratic backsliding, which continues to this day.
The sixth was the abysmal handling of refugee crisis.
The seventh was Ukraine.
The list goes on.
EU will never work because majority of EU countries are center right (including neo liberal) or far right. As such regular EU citizens have little to no faith in the system and do not want to die for EU oligarchs
It’s a little unfair to blame the EU for the credit crunch. Most of that was due to the Americans. Likewise, Brexit was a democratic action. The British wanted Brexit at the time.
The UK under the conservatives was the member state that applied the strongest austerity measures and it has been subsequently shown to be a mistake economically but it was a great excuse to advance their agenda.
Old and ignorant people voting against their own interests, populists and first past the post are the current villains. The British ruling class are all educated in the same few schools on the same topics, e.g. the classics and liberal arts. They have created a fetish out of business, home ownership and cars. The rational humanist does not have a place in this society. At least the EU is defending human rights and basing it’s decisions more firmly on enlightenment values.
That’s basically a “You stubbed a toe hence you failed” tribalist take, cleary spinned along Russian Propaganda lines.
The spin is painfully obvious by the very first example being the 2008 recession, which was a problem for the whole World hence by your definition the whole World failed. The rest is just a mix of consequence of the former (Greece crisis, Brexit), not an EU thing (China steel dumping, Russian invasion of Ukraine), outdated-info/lies (Poland is no longer ruled by the Far-Right), your pure opinion (that there was an actual crisis with refugees and the quality if its handling).
You claim the “The EU will never work” even whilst it keeps on working and has worked for decades: you’re fantasising.
That shit is pure “you have to give up and die (and let us get our fill from whatever is left)” anti-EU propaganda straight out of Moscow.
You had me in six of these, but how on earth does the EU suffer from cheap steel? For all the sins of the member states and their collaborative governing efforts, I’ve yet to see “too much industrial development with low-cost raw materials” on the list.
EU will never work because majority of EU countries are center right (including neo liberal) or far right.
I could see a future in which the white supremacist strains within the EU create an ideological confederacy through which a unified nationalist identity forms. Simply hating Africa, Arabia, and East Asia might be enough to galvanize large coalitions of Europeans together. But what are they unifying into, if not a bitter, hostile, solipsistic, rump?
The EU without an eye towards free Mediterranean trade and travel is just a suicide pact. Might as well go full Hermit Kingdom, rebuild the Iron Curtain, and stop pretending to matter globally,.
Europe needs to be strong enough to stand on its own at all levels, but I think it’s a pretty bad idea for it to become a neo-Imperial power in the style of America.
For all the great things of Democracy, the one thing people forget in their rosy propaganda-tainted view of it (living inside of it, we’re constantly bombarde by political messaging about its greatness) is that by definition even the most perfect Democracy only has the duty to represent the will of its citizens, not of people who are not citizens of that Democracy.
So there is no ideological element in Democracy to make it less nasty at exploiting people from other countries than authoritarian regimes.
All this to say that Europe shouldn’t get into the business of power projection like the US has done for decades (leaving a long trail of death, suffering and destitution all over the World, especially the Middle East and Latin America).
And I say this as an European and somebody who would stand to gain indirectly from Europe going systematically (it’s already done by businesses and some governments in it, just not openly and systematically) into the business of exploiting non-Europeans.
A peacefull when not provoked giant would probably be the best philosphy for a strong Europe, IMHO.
(Edit: for avoidance of doubt I want to state that for me Russia trying to advance westwards by invading Ukraine counts as a provocation)
One great myth of imperial power plays is that the exploitation benefits the imperial power. It often doesn’t. The scramble for Africa, for example, was a net economic drain for all the great powers that participated. Every little thing they gained was generally lost as they spent immense amounts of money on being manipulated into useless conflicts by client chiefs. Similar dynamic for England in India during the later periods and associated areas (the British conquest of Myanmar was particularly useless). The only real benefit is economic dominance and the ability to trade (like that was seen in Singapore and Canton). For all it’s imperialism and interventionism from the Philippines to Korea to Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq, America hasn’t seen a gain. Most of the moves by the great powers only benefits a select few of private citizens while the state spends lives and treasure on conquest and subsequent administration for an illegitimate government that becomes corrupt and fragile.
Are you fucking kidding me? Britain stands where it is only because of wealth it looted from its colonies.
If course, I’m sure it has little to do with readily available coal veins and early centralization that allowed for rapid industrialization that then powered the colonial boondoggle in the first place that primarily enriched private interests. That’s why the empire still exists right? It couldn’t be a prime example of imperial overreach.
For folks that don’t know. This is what colonial power propaganda looks.
I think you’re mistaking my intention. I’m saying that imperialism is ultimately self defeating and has been throughout history. It’s a fundamentally doomed path.
That will never happen because EU has already failed multiple times.
The 2008 recession and accompanying austerity was the first. This austerity is directly responsible for the rise of far right in EU.
The second were the multiple economic crisises from EU countries like Greece, etc.
The third was Brexit.
The fourth was China dumping all its steel.
The fifth was it failure to hold Poland and Hungry accountable for democratic backsliding, which continues to this day.
The sixth was the abysmal handling of refugee crisis.
The seventh was Ukraine.
The list goes on.
EU will never work because majority of EU countries are center right (including neo liberal) or far right. As such regular EU citizens have little to no faith in the system and do not want to die for EU oligarchs
It’s a little unfair to blame the EU for the credit crunch. Most of that was due to the Americans. Likewise, Brexit was a democratic action. The British wanted Brexit at the time.
The UK under the conservatives was the member state that applied the strongest austerity measures and it has been subsequently shown to be a mistake economically but it was a great excuse to advance their agenda.
Old and ignorant people voting against their own interests, populists and first past the post are the current villains. The British ruling class are all educated in the same few schools on the same topics, e.g. the classics and liberal arts. They have created a fetish out of business, home ownership and cars. The rational humanist does not have a place in this society. At least the EU is defending human rights and basing it’s decisions more firmly on enlightenment values.
That’s basically a “You stubbed a toe hence you failed” tribalist take, cleary spinned along Russian Propaganda lines.
The spin is painfully obvious by the very first example being the 2008 recession, which was a problem for the whole World hence by your definition the whole World failed. The rest is just a mix of consequence of the former (Greece crisis, Brexit), not an EU thing (China steel dumping, Russian invasion of Ukraine), outdated-info/lies (Poland is no longer ruled by the Far-Right), your pure opinion (that there was an actual crisis with refugees and the quality if its handling).
You claim the “The EU will never work” even whilst it keeps on working and has worked for decades: you’re fantasising.
That shit is pure “you have to give up and die (and let us get our fill from whatever is left)” anti-EU propaganda straight out of Moscow.
You had me in six of these, but how on earth does the EU suffer from cheap steel? For all the sins of the member states and their collaborative governing efforts, I’ve yet to see “too much industrial development with low-cost raw materials” on the list.
I could see a future in which the white supremacist strains within the EU create an ideological confederacy through which a unified nationalist identity forms. Simply hating Africa, Arabia, and East Asia might be enough to galvanize large coalitions of Europeans together. But what are they unifying into, if not a bitter, hostile, solipsistic, rump?
The EU without an eye towards free Mediterranean trade and travel is just a suicide pact. Might as well go full Hermit Kingdom, rebuild the Iron Curtain, and stop pretending to matter globally,.
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