For the previous 8 years, instead of fighting fascism and white nationalism, the Democrats have made their enemy the populists within their own party.
It ended expectedly.
DNC rigged their primary in favor of Hillary in 2016 and fucked him over AGAIN in 2020 when Obama made a phone call urging both Klobuchar and Buttigeg to drop and endorse Biden. They fucked themselves and the rest of the country twice (now three times) in a row. They’re done as a party, many moved Independent and will remain there for the rest of their lives unless the Dems get their shit together.
Bernie won fewer votes in Vermont, his home state, than Kamala. One of the rare incumbent Democratic Senators who actually underperformed Harris.
Okay now do swing states, the only states that actually end up mattering in presidential elections. Bernie captivated audiences on Fox news during his campaign, appeared in Republican town halls and listened to people. Id bet you dollars to donuts Bernie would outperform her by miles in the swing states.
I assure you there are Fox news viewers in Vermont, too.
Okay?
Given his lackluster election results, apparently they don’t actually find him very captivating.
Youd be wrong. Youd also be wrong to automatically assume they didn’t vote for him, unless you have any data that says that. In fact wasn’t Democrat turnout down while Republican turnout was up? If hes missing votes it makes way more sense its from dems who stayed home. Unless you have any data that says otherwise, the lower dem turnout in all non swing states explains that a lot better than assuming all fox news viewers simply voted against him. Especially since Trump lost the VT primary. More than half the republicans in that state voted against him during the pimary in favor of Niki Haley, how many of them you think went back to Trump? They clearly don’t mind voting for a woman.
I’m saying that unlike nearly every other Democratic Senator, he performed worse than Harris. That’s a lackluster result.
If he somehow won Fox News voters, then it was at the expense of losing even more voters elsewhere. That’s not a recipe for winning nationwide.
And no, you cannot blame it on Vermont. Harris turned out Vermont voters, why couldn’t Sanders turn out as many as she did?
And no, you cannot blame it on Vermont. Harris turned out Vermont voters, why couldn’t Sanders turn out as many as she did?
7% of votes this cycle were bullet votes, no downballot races at all, that’s up from about half a percent typically. Harris got more votes simply because of the race she was running in.
Sounds like people ain’t never been to the northeast kingdom.
… So he would do worse in the solid blue states but better in the purple states because… red leaning voters are secretly socialists but blue leaning voters are neoliberal scum?
Read my comment again and dont skip the part about him being well recieved on Fox News and Republican town halls. Its right there why ignore it? Was kamala as well recieved by fox news viewers?
I must be a little slow.
Please explain to me why you think that a candidate who is CONSIDERABLY farther to the left than Kamala is going to outperform her with republican voters. Unless it really is just “he did a good interview on fox”. And how that would apparently be better even though he was doing worse with blue voters.
Here is a hint: It is because he has a dick and people are misogynistic as fuck. And you know who else has a dick (as documented in multiple sexual assault and rape allegations)?
I think you’re right, you are a little slow. It was more than one interview, it was more than one town hall. People voted for abortion and trump on the same ballot and you cant fathom working party politics playing better among those people?
You’re either slower that you admit or purposfully ignorant to further your opinion. You add nothing to a conversation and ignore or belittle anything contrary to your viewpoint. Find someone with more time to invest in teaching slow people, because I may as well be talking with a Republican the way you twist everything I write.
But… I didn’t vote for Bernie in either primary. So I guess that makes me a lefitst? I mean, I consider myself to be more of a very progressive (American definition of) liberal but… your logic is infallible.
Also: You need to actually make a point before you huff off in a mess of ad hominem. But I am sure all us slow people don’t understand the 9-d chess you are explaining to us or whatever.
No, it’s because Trump-leaning voters are very blatantly populist and anti-status-quo and Bernie would deliver that more genuinely than Trump.
Ah yes, defeat Trump by appealing to conservatives. A time-tested strategy.
No, damn it! Quit being willfully obtuse. Why can’t you acknowledge the fact that damn near a third of the country is so disaffected by both parties’ refusal to meet their needs that they’d given up on voting at all? That’s the demographic – people clamoring for change, any change, because the status quo has failed them – that fake-populist Trump appealed to for his margin of victory, and that real-populist Bernie could’ve appealed to even better.
Bernie can’t bring out people who don’t vote. If he could, he would have won a lot more votes in Vermont.
Okay, I need you to understand something: not voting in a primary is not the same thing as not voting in the general election. That goes double for the kinds of people who are pissed off at the two-party system in general.
Do you realize how fundamentally stupid it is to respond to the argument “Bernie was capable of winning the general election precisely because he would appeal to the kinds of people who don’t vote in Democratic primaries” by saying “but if he can’t even win the primary how could he win the general election?”
I go back and forth, but I do think Sanders would have had good odds in 2020. We had the same “I can’t vote for the status quo” non-arguments going around and a semi-populist candidate arguing for all the things people desperately needed (a socioeconomic safety net, basically) at the height of COVID and civil unrest would have done well. That said, an old white guy who was “warm and safe and was in the same room as Obama a few times” was probably still the right play.
But yeah. In 2024 when all people care about is “not the status quo” and “why eggs expensive”? A guy arguing for MORE government programs does not fair well against “Yo, what if we got rid of all taxes and government funding? Don’t ask where the money is going”
But yeah. In 2024 when all people care about is “not the status quo” and “why eggs expensive”? A guy arguing for MORE government programs does not fair well against “Yo, what if we got rid of all taxes and government funding? Don’t ask where the money is going”
Bernie has better answers to that than Trump, though.
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You don’t need to concede to their belief and subsequent policies if they aren’t grounded in reality, like on immigration. You provide a counter narrative grounded in reality that actually address their needs and concerns, real or perceived.
The Republican narrative on immigration is that immigrants are criminals, bringing crime and drugs into our country to kill our citizens, steal jobs, and exploit welfare, so we need mass deportations. None of that is based on reality.
US citizens are responsible for smuggling in drugs. Immigrants are responsible for less crime per capita than US citizens, use much less welfare than citizens, and contribute far more than they use. The underlying fear is cost of living and safety. So a counter narrative that both points out the realities of mass deportation, aka concentration camps, and provides real solutions to the problems, would absolutely capture those voters and fracture the Republican base.
Those real solutions would include legalization of illegal immigrants to stop companies from exploiting both them and citizens with a two-tier immigration system, increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy to pay for universal social services, systemic solutions to addiction and homelessness, and increasing security to catch smugglers at points of entry. All of which are popular. You address their fears, improve their material needs, and point out how terrible the oppositions ‘solutions’ are, all without conceding to the Republican framing based on racist lies.
In fact, many progressive policies are popular across the board, including Republicans and independents.
Polls on campaign messaging
How to Win a Swing Voter in Seven Days
“The View” Alternate Universe: Break From Biden in Interviews, Play the Hits in Ads
Polls on policy
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz’s Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
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However, to those who feel this way, the only acceptable solution is “Get rid of them all”.
And what evidence do you have for that? Because every poll about people’s beliefs on deportation does show the majority support it, yet in the same exact poll a larger majority supports legalization. So no, you are completely wrong that that’s the ‘only acceptable solution’. The biggest reason for the change in public support for deportation is that the Democrats stopped counter messaging and moved to the right, despite their position of legalization since Obama was always significantly more popular. People don’t know the reality because the Democrats never talk about it and share the data.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/647123/sharply-americans-curb-immigration.aspx
https://www.vox.com/policy/368889/immigration-border-polls-election-2024-trump-harris
Harris tried countering bullshit with reality. Voters voted for the bullshit.
No she didn’t. She ran on build the wall like Trump did in 2016. The major problem with that is, if people believe those lies about immigrants, and then the opposition (D) capitulates, all it accomplishes is further entrenching their beliefs in those lies. And if they believe in those lies, then they’ll go with the party that’s been running on those lies for far longer, the Republicans. That change in immigration policy only accomplished pushing people to the Republican party. It’s a losing strategy. There is no way to outflank the Republicans on issues by moving to the right. On the other hand, it’s incredibly easy to attack that message by bringing up how it means concentration camps and the incredible cost to the economy and Americans.
Every state in the US went redder. US voters voted overwhelmingly in favor of “get rid of 'em all”.
Because the Democratics did practically nothing to galvanize their voter base of the working class, causing tens of millions to be apathetic and stay home. You can’t simultaneously say polls are BS and then cite public opinion which we know about from polling. Polling is used to understand public sentiment, exactly why the exact wording of them matter. Not only am I going off of public opinion, I’m also going off the morality of being against mass deportations. If slavery was popular I wouldn’t say the party should run on slavery because it’s popular.
How many elections does Trump have to win before you realize these polls don’t mean shit?
Shows you didn’t look at a single poll. People want progressive policies. The Democrats don’t run on progressive policies. So you’re blaming the fact that they’re losing when they run without progressive policies to justify that progressive policies wouldn’t cause them to win. That makes no sense and goes against all the data that shows otherwise.
Again, these right-wing fabrications not based on any evidence and its what the Republican party has run for for years. It is a white nativist sentiment. There is plenty of evidence that disprove those sentiments.
Economic Impact
Myth : Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. Economy and Reducing Immigration would make our economy stronger.
Fact : The United States needs immigrants to stay competitive and drive economic growth, Particularly as our economy starts to reopen, individuals who create jobs are absolutely critical to our recovery. Immigrants are innovators, job creators, and consumers with an enormous spending power that drives our economy, and creates employment opportunities for all Americans. Immigrants added $2 trillion to the U.S. GDP in 2016 and $458.7 billion to state, local, and federal taxes in 2018. In 2018, after immigrants spent billions of dollars on state and local, and federal taxes, they were left with $1.2 trillion in spending power, which they used to purchase goods and services, stimulating local business activity. Proposed cuts to our legal immigration system would have devastating effects on our economy, decreasing GDP by 2% over twenty years, shrinking growth by 12.5%, and cutting 4.6 million jobs. Rust Belt states would be hit particularly hard, as they rely on immigration to stabilize their populations and revive their economies.
Taxes and Essential Services
Myth : Immigrants are a burden to essential services like schools, hospitals, and highways.
Fact: Immigrants make significant contributions to our economy on virtually every front - including on tax revenue, where they contribute $458.7 billion to state, local, and federal taxes in 2018. This includes undocumented immigrants, who contribute roughly $11.74 billion a year in state and local taxes, including more than $7 billion in sales and excise taxes, $3.6 billion in property taxes, and $1.1 billion in personal income taxes. These billions of tax dollars fund our schools, hospitals, emergency response services, highways, and other essential services. These revenues would increase by $2.18 billion annually if undocumented immigrants were given legal status as part of an immigration reform package. Additionally, immigrants make enormous contributions to Social Security. If current legal immigration levels were cut by 50%, the Social Security fund would lose $1.5 trillion in revenue over the next 75 years.
IRI
There are 45 million immigrants living in the United States. Making up 14 percent of the national population, immigrants are a vital part of the social, economic, and cultural life of all American communities.
The economic role of immigrants has frequently been misunderstood. On the one hand, immigrants are a big and important part of the economy. And, on the other hand, immigrants are disproportionately concentrated in low-wage jobs. Both things are true at the same time.
Other sources:
They didn’t do this due to public opinion, again legalizing illegal immigrants is far more popular than deportation, despite the Democratic Party not doing any counter messaging against the right-wing narrative. They moved to the right at the expense of voters, it gained them zero voters.
That is why trump and vance were so adamant about no fact checking during the debates. All they had to do was say “nuh uh. I saw it on the news” and the moderators couldn’t really do much.
Which gets back to the underlying problem of Democrats not actually having a way to communicate with voters. Because even when Fox was saying “Just to be clear for legal reasons, there is no evidence of Haitian immigrants eating dogs” it was followed with “now let’s see what else god emperor trump has to say”.
Whereas Democrats? We had people who were more interested in attacking Biden than trump (even after he stepped down) and who mostly just said “ha ha, trump says stupid shit.”
Because, yeah, logic can’t beat vibes. But we also weren’t putting out the vibes the way we were in 2020.
Maybe, but it’s all academic if we don’t have the power to get him nominated. I am reminded of a quip: “We elect people without power and we’re surprised that they’re powerless to change things”. That is the best case scenario if the DNC had somehow nominated Bernie. We need to build power, no matter what our strategy or objective. Highly recommend reading this over doom posting: https://wagingnonviolence.org/2024/11/10-things-to-do-if-trump-wins/
I was a Bernie delegate in Minnesota when he won the state in 2020 and I skill knew he had no shot in the vast majority of less liberal states. Where are the numbers coming from for people who would have supposedly voted him in, despite not winning enough primaries?
They would have been coming from:
- People who sat out the primaries because they were so disgusted with both parties failing to represent their interests
- People who voted Trump in the primary as a “burn it all down” protest vote
- Liberals, who would surely “vote blue no matter who” because they aren’t hypocrites, right?
My heart belongs to Bernie.
The left really should actually organize and form a secret party of political actors who run as republicans to disrupt the vote.
They should just run fake centrists in the Democratic Party and then turn all progressive when they get into office.
Like centrists did with the fake progressives Fetterman and Sinema.
Let’s do both! Sneak attack
If we’re very lucky, we can get it so it’s a stealth progressive against a stealth progressive.
How does that make any sense compared to moderates going to the Republican party?
Like, the current Dems are “progressives” who want what every other 1st world country got decades ago, and “moderates” who want what Republicans wanted decades ago…
Why are the “moderates” trying to moderate the Dem party instead of the one that’s so far from center they’re openly fascist?
If they had stayed where they were in the 80s, then the furthest right we’d have been in 2024 was Kamala
Do you understand how ridiculous it is to say everyone to the left of them should go R?
Absolutely best case scenario we end up with two modern Dem parties and that fixes nothing.
But if the moderates go to the Republican party?
They’d get what they want, they can be pro-fracking. They can be for genocide, they can be for politicians using insider knowledge to make millions off the stock market, they can be for the end of political donations regulations.
And have total party unity on all those topics, while moderating the Republicans so they run McCains instead of trumps.
But that’s hard.
And moderates have never been fighters.
The only way they’ll go moderate Republicans, is if Dems kick them the fuck out of running the party.
They did it in 08, they’ll do it again if we get a progressive to the general. It’s not a problem either because we’ll gain waaaaay more votes than we lose.
They would last MAYBE one term before they were instantly primaried and removed from power.
The reason manchin and sinema are so destructive is that they were from INCREDIBLY purple states. Going up against them would just split the vote and guarantee the republican candidate one. fetterman is more of a special case and time will tell on him.
The other? To get elected as a magat you need to be a pretty hateful son of a bitch. And people are already turning on AOC for removing her pronouns from her social media bio.
Because… just look at the Bernie Bros. Democrats are INCREDIBLY good at purity testing each other. So someone who pretended they wanted to enslave women and then voted for progressive legislature? They would be forever tainted and vilified… and kind of rightfully so.
This is absolutely untrue.
Dems should have just used more charts that show how actually you’re not paying more for groceries and making less money adjusted for inflation.
They also should have just had Kamala drop out and replaced her with Liz Cheney, that would have gotten the moderate vote.
They also should have shamed the people who don’t like funding wholesale slaughter around the world more, these are jobs we’re talking about here!
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Lol love the smoke. I voted for Harris, even encouraged my irl friends and family to. I just think that tacking to the right is insane.
Cheney’s the one I happened to hear the most about and they’re all shitbirds, but go off about the misogyny.
I’m the parent of a trans kid, I’m at a real risk of being chased out of the fucking country right now or maybe just thrown in jail, based on the chitchat around the watercooler now by both Dems and Rs. I’ve already been chased out of one home by bigots empowered by these pieces of shit.
I absolutely didn’t want Trump to win. His win emboldens right wing terrorists across the country.
My criticisms are genuine and valid. I’m describing to you the things that put people off with less to lose than people like me and the people I love. The Democratic party deserves to burn for this, but instead they’ll all be #resistance and send out more fundraising texts while the rest of us suffer. The lesson they’ll most likely take from this is the one people like you seem to be taking “we can’t run a woman because misogyny and we need to start burning leftists because we’re not right wing enough.”
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You got me bro.
I’m a secret Trump shill encouraging local mutual aid and how the Democrats could/should have won.
Hey, if you get your way me and everybody like me won’t be a problem anymore, grats on the dub.
Since the thin rainbow line isn’t going to answer it:
All of those questions boil down to the same thing libertarians were telling kids in the 90s. They want to push the country/world to the breaking point with the expectation that they will come out on top in the revolution. Which works especially well in a culture where guns have more rights than children and EVERYONE thinks they are the totally no-homo love child of John Matrix and Captain Price.
I like to lurk at Restera when I am bored and it was REAL funny to watch all the folk in the “Socialism OT” get mass banned around the time they got bought out (I think MMO Network quietly owns them?). because suddenly having swarms of people openly talking about wanting guns for violent uprisings became a no no.
And the other reason I decided to reply to this: Just because someone understands that trans rights are human rights doesn’t mean they support all civil rights. Trans folk learned the hard way just how many Ls and Bs are TERFs, for example. Bisexuals continue to get “pick a side” shit from the G and the Ls. And so forth.
Because it is the same with racism. Understanding that racism against your skin color or even your friend’s skin color doesn’t mean that you care about racism against ALL skin colors. Just ask us AAPI folk (and watch as we instinctively explain that our parents somehow became white supremacists rather than acknowledging that we get shit on by all our “allies” any time it is convenient).
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you make a lot of really persuasive points. if only the campaign had communicated them.
i think the chronically online politics sphere overestimates how much the average voter knows by about 100-fold and that’s why we get comments like this.
when mcdonalds releases a new burger and no one buys it, we blame the product and the marketing. but when the DNC drops a new candidate, there is no room to talk about the candidate or the marketing for some reason—it’s all finger pointing and blaming one another for not “just getting” information that’s all but kept hidden from a population with >20% rates of low literacy.
I think the problem is less “the campaign” communicating and more… there is no way for them to reach the majority of the audience.
There are plenty of memes about people realizing on election day that Biden wasn’t running. And… that isn’t that far out. Because people:
- Refuse to watch commercials… ever
- Get pissy when “politics” is brought up in their entertainment
- Get even pissier when “politics” is brought up in a message board
So republicans can more or less advertise directly to the fox news crowd and they have influencers like xqc and all of kick to get that message out.
On the left side? We have fucking Hasan. A nepo baby who has somehow convinced people to equate “being a socialist and fighting for progress” with “donating subs to a super rich guy in a mansion” and whose own fans point out that he “Attacked both sides but attacked trump a lot worse”
We need people who can reach out to the idiots. And we need people who can do so and actually say “Look. I fucking hate Biden and am wary of Kamala. They are going to be horrible for Palestine. But you know who is going to be worse? Fucking trump. So yeah, I would vote for Genocide Joe in a heartbeat if the alternative is trump and that is what we need to understand”
John Oliver did a spectacular job of saying almost exactly that. But he is on HBO and has a much smaller audience.
Aside from that? I guess we had Walz playing Madden with AOC a few times?
It feels like Democrats are still running TV ads and phone banking. Whereas republicans are bringing out ALL the grifters to push their side.
really good insight and it sounds like a good opportunity for the DNC to find those channels rather than give up and court suburban conservatives.
Well said. Every time someone says that Kamala “was not likeable” I just assume “I don’t want no women in office”
Please, make it make sense.
No.
The voters are entitled to their vote whether it makes sense or not. Failing to vote for Kamala (or Hillary, for that matter) to stop Trump was objectively stupid, but it was their right to be objectively stupid if they wanted.
The Democrats had two choices: they could capitulate to that stupidity, run a progressive, and have a chance of winning, or they could obstinately cling to neoliberalism and lose. You’d think their basic responsibility as a political party whose goal is to win would have them choose the former, but instead they chose the latter. Make that make sense!
Sure, just as it’s our right to call them fucking stupid.
But it’s not the Democratic Party’s right to do so. Calling people stupid instead of trying to win their vote is dereliction of duty.
The Democrats have kowtowed to corporate donors (and the likes of AIPAC) to the point that they are failing to do their job, and they need to be held accountable for that.
An even older candidate would have absolutely lost in 24. He may have won in 16, but more likely he loses but gets a bigger share of the popular vote than Hilary did.
Trump is going to be the oldest presidenr we’ve had, why do you think Bernies age would make him less popular? 24 literally went to the old guy.
Bernie ain’t winning shit beyond his seat right now
Yet, he literally, didn’t win…
or any more true.
Yet, he literally, didn’t win…
Bernie is older than Biden.
Trump is older than Kamala
So what’s your point🤷
Biden was criticized for being too old. Bernie is 83.
The main crux of the “Biden is too old” criticism though wasn’t the actual age number, it was that he wasn’t mentally all there, which was on display constantly. Bernie always comes off as put together and his speeches are well executed. Biden’s issue was that he sounded less put together than Trump which was impressive in its own way
So bad for Biden but ok for Bernie. Got it.
I am skeptical if the guy who was a meme about how nobody cares about politics on c-span AND who has historically refused to condemn the horrific “communist” regimes would do well against an opponent who does nothing but throw schoolyard insults. Calling Biden “a communist” makes most of the moderates laugh. Calling Bernie “a communist” leads to him basically saying what only the far (American) left wants to hear and terrifying the hell out of the center.
But also? This makes no fucking sense and just makes “leftists” look like assholes.
- Because Hilary was not as left leaning as Sanders you… refused to vote and gave the right wing moron the win?
- Because Biden was not as left leaning as Sanders… he won? Or are we now saying that Genocide Joe is a straight up marxist?
- Because Kamala was not as left leaning as Sanders you… refused to vote and gave the openly fascist hatemonger the win?
I do think the Dems screwed up the “primary”. But also? There was no time. Conventional wisdom is that you don’t run against your own incumbent and the extent of Biden’s infirmity was not apparent until way too late. We were never going to have nation wide votes and it was always going to be “super delegates”. But maybe a more public “debate” rather than all the major players just saying “Yeah, Kamala is awesome” within a few hours of her announcing would have done more for the “base” who… still decided not to vote?
Just to reply to myself on the primary thing:
Part of me does wonder if we wouldn’t be better with a standing policy to ALWAYS primary the POTUS. Done well, we have a way, as the people, to influence the platform and make our candidate much stronger.
Then I remember that we are STILL litigating 2016 because some people are pissy that the person they wanted didn’t get the votes (obviously only because of people understanding the existence of superdelegates, I guess?) and all the damage that was done to Hilary because Sanders didn’t concede when he should have and use his political capital to get concessions (as he seemed to have done with Biden in 2020).
