The bar is on the floor for men, and unreasonably high for women.
Women put some of those restrictions on each other, but largely as a byproduct of the society they were raised in.
It’s a privilege in the same way that having a shoulder to cry on is a female privilege.
If you’re going to try to argue that society doesn’t push people into certain roles or to think in certain ways, or that men aren’t also involved in creating the parts of society that determine roles for women, then I don’t think we can have a meaningful exchange.
It’s a privilege in the same way that having a shoulder to cry on is a female privilege.
I don’t consider that female privilege. I think we just have different definitions for what privilege is or more likely where we draw the line. To me, privilege is something more concrete and impactful, like men being trusted more in leadership roles or women being more trusted around kids.
But they’re related. They’re different facets of the same thing: the roles and expectations that society forces people into.
Setting aside what you do and don’t think is impactful, the point is that these are expectations that society puts on people, and where these expectations come from is complex. Have you ever heard of the Five Whys? It can be a helpful way to look at these problems; it can’t capture the complexity but it illustrates that the causes run deep.
For example, there are some pretty easily accessible YouTube videos (podcasts?) on the history of the women’s fashion and cosmetics industries, and how they pivoted their marketing to great effect to sell products to women by pressing these kinds of expectations into society, and those marketing teams contain a lot of men. This doesn’t explain all of history, but it’s an example of what I’m talking about.
Yeah, I understand all of that, I just don’t think we should be using the term “privilege” for every little echo of history. Are men’s pockets a form of privilege? Women are privileged to have more variety of tops? At a certain point, the term loses all meaning.
If by “loses all meaning” you mean “loses significance” then there is some truth to that, but I leave it up to the general opinion of the people who are put at risk by that loss of significance to decide when it becomes a problem.
Realistically I think that it was probably meant as a half joke, as in its funny in how unserious it is, but also a real criticism in how pervasive this kind of toxic behavior is.
I think that the reply, that men aren’t involved in it, is taking an willfully ignorant stance.
I mean that using a charged term to describe a trivial issue or problem is a form of hysteria and drama-seeking. The issue being cited in the image is trivial and—as pointed out by the response—maintained pretty much entirely by women. There’s a point at which you have to stop blaming things on gender inequalities, because regardless of whether or not they can be traced back to cultural conditioning, the simplest solution is that you personal responsibility and stop conforming to them. The problem isn’t that other women will criticize you for wearing the same dress twice; they’re problem is that you care.
I have nearly zero respect for the intellectual capacity of someone who thinks that female gender roles are perpetuated mainly by women, and especially little respect for people who think they’re above social conditioning and that it should be a simple matter for others to shrug it off. It shows a shocking lack of self awareness.
I don’t think there is value in continuing this discussion with you.
I didn’t say I thought that female gender roles are perpetuated mainly by women. That’s a blanket statement that I would never make. I said the specific practice cited in this post is maintained by women—because it is. Men don’t punish women socially for wearing the same dress on two different occasions.
Nor do I think women should be immune to social conditioning; all of us are influenced by it. But I reject the notion that we’re entirely imprisoned by it. When you’re aware of it, you can work on reprogramming yourself and rejecting it. And you know what? That’s far more effective than expecting the world to change to suit your preferences.
Paint me as a misogynistic POS in your own head all you like; I know I’m not. I’m sorry the nuance here was too much for you.
The bar is on the floor for men, and unreasonably high for women.
Women put some of those restrictions on each other, but largely as a byproduct of the society they were raised in.
It’s a privilege in the same way that having a shoulder to cry on is a female privilege.
If you’re going to try to argue that society doesn’t push people into certain roles or to think in certain ways, or that men aren’t also involved in creating the parts of society that determine roles for women, then I don’t think we can have a meaningful exchange.
I don’t consider that female privilege. I think we just have different definitions for what privilege is or more likely where we draw the line. To me, privilege is something more concrete and impactful, like men being trusted more in leadership roles or women being more trusted around kids.
But they’re related. They’re different facets of the same thing: the roles and expectations that society forces people into.
Setting aside what you do and don’t think is impactful, the point is that these are expectations that society puts on people, and where these expectations come from is complex. Have you ever heard of the Five Whys? It can be a helpful way to look at these problems; it can’t capture the complexity but it illustrates that the causes run deep.
For example, there are some pretty easily accessible YouTube videos (podcasts?) on the history of the women’s fashion and cosmetics industries, and how they pivoted their marketing to great effect to sell products to women by pressing these kinds of expectations into society, and those marketing teams contain a lot of men. This doesn’t explain all of history, but it’s an example of what I’m talking about.
And always remember; hurt people hurt people.
Yeah, I understand all of that, I just don’t think we should be using the term “privilege” for every little echo of history. Are men’s pockets a form of privilege? Women are privileged to have more variety of tops? At a certain point, the term loses all meaning.
If by “loses all meaning” you mean “loses significance” then there is some truth to that, but I leave it up to the general opinion of the people who are put at risk by that loss of significance to decide when it becomes a problem.
Realistically I think that it was probably meant as a half joke, as in its funny in how unserious it is, but also a real criticism in how pervasive this kind of toxic behavior is.
I think that the reply, that men aren’t involved in it, is taking an willfully ignorant stance.
I mean that using a charged term to describe a trivial issue or problem is a form of hysteria and drama-seeking. The issue being cited in the image is trivial and—as pointed out by the response—maintained pretty much entirely by women. There’s a point at which you have to stop blaming things on gender inequalities, because regardless of whether or not they can be traced back to cultural conditioning, the simplest solution is that you personal responsibility and stop conforming to them. The problem isn’t that other women will criticize you for wearing the same dress twice; they’re problem is that you care.
I have nearly zero respect for the intellectual capacity of someone who thinks that female gender roles are perpetuated mainly by women, and especially little respect for people who think they’re above social conditioning and that it should be a simple matter for others to shrug it off. It shows a shocking lack of self awareness.
I don’t think there is value in continuing this discussion with you.
I didn’t say I thought that female gender roles are perpetuated mainly by women. That’s a blanket statement that I would never make. I said the specific practice cited in this post is maintained by women—because it is. Men don’t punish women socially for wearing the same dress on two different occasions.
Nor do I think women should be immune to social conditioning; all of us are influenced by it. But I reject the notion that we’re entirely imprisoned by it. When you’re aware of it, you can work on reprogramming yourself and rejecting it. And you know what? That’s far more effective than expecting the world to change to suit your preferences.
Paint me as a misogynistic POS in your own head all you like; I know I’m not. I’m sorry the nuance here was too much for you.
Sorry you’re not able to follow your own statements to their natural conclusions 👎