Convincing people to use apps such as Signal is hard work and most can’t be convinced. But with those you manage to convince, do you feel happy to talk to them on Signal?
The problem is these people use Signal on Android/IOS which can’t be trusted and IOS has recently been in the news for having a backdoor. And it has also been revealed that american feds are able to read everyone’s push notifications and they do this as mass surveillance.
So not only do you have to convince people to use Signal which is an incredibly difficult challenge. You also have to convince them to go into settings to disable message and sender being included in the push notifications. And then there’s the big question is the Android and IOS operating systems are doing mass surveillance anyway. And many people find it taking a lot of effort to type on the phone so they install Signal on the computer which is a mac or Windows OS.
So I don’t think I feel comfortable sending messages in Signal but it’s better than Whatsapp.
These were some thoughts to get the discussion started and set the context.
I use Molly, a fork of Signal in order to use nfty push notifications
Molly
Nice, wasn’t aware of this fork! Good share.
Signal is fine for almost everyone unless you’re truly doing dangerous work in a truly oppressive state.
I’m so tired of everyone telling others not to use signal because it uses phone numbers. Everyone in here acting like they’re mr. Robot or something.
Anonymity is not the same as privacy. Privacy is good enough for me
You are just spreading misinformation! Cite your sources!
There is a strategy used, which allows the government to find out who an account belongs to. They ask the push providers (Apple/Google) for data on the push token from e.g. a messaging app. This way they associate the account from an app with an identity.
Nothing there about message content. It is still safely E2EE.
I don’t know how it works in your country, but in mine, phone numbers are already associated with identities, so nothing gained as the gov can just ask signal for the phone number of an account, instead of having to ask signal and the push provider to get the identity.(Edit: apparently it’s hashed, so there seems to be a use for this.) Signal isn’t about Anonymity but Privacy. There is a difference.If you have another vulnerability cite it!
They ask the push providers (Apple/Google) for data on the push token from e.g. a messaging app. This way they associate the account from an app with an identity.
Very overlooked point. You can find privacy guides online but very few even suggest that FCM etc. might have privacy issues, let alone explain exactly why. It seems this has already been used by law enforcement in the past: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-google-push-notification-surveillance/
The Molly-FOSS fork of Signal (which aims to be even more secure/private) actually supports self-hosted push notifications using UnifiedPush.
I also found this comment:
As far as I know, FCM on Android can be configured to use a notification payload (which is piped through Google’s servers). But for a release app this is discouraged, especially if you are privacy conscious. An app would normally use FCM to receive a trigger and look up the received message from the app’s own backend. See here for more information.
“spreading misinformation” is a phrase mostly used by feds when they see something they consider to be “wrong think” or not “politically correct”. They use this anti-misinformation campaign to support their censorship and mass surveillance system.
When discussing advanced IT topics it would be more appropriate to just correct someone and say they are wrong because it’s easy to be get a detail wrong in advanced it topics.
And I am mostly right, I just seem to have been wrong on the detail about Signal push notifications. I admit that I made a mistake on that but otherwise it is official that Apple and Google at least used to share push notification data with governments. This comes from the DOJ senator Wyden saying these corporations can secretly share this data with governments and can include the unencrypted text which is displayed in the notification.
I think this discussion has been very constructive because when we can correct each other and learn that is great.
Misinformation is the inadvertent spread of false information without intent to harm, while disinformation is false information designed to mislead others and is deliberately spread with the intent to confuse fact and fiction. Source
This is more than a simple mistake and I am right to call it misinformation. I appreciate that you seem open to discussion about you being wrong. Nevertheless your post is still not edited to correct the proven wrong statements. You can use strikethrough so no context is lost, like I did in the comment you are replying to, where I was wrong.
You made a post with huge claims, basically saying that signal is unsecure and messages can be read by the goverment. This is such a big claim that it should have been researched by you beforehand and you should have provided sources. You don’t get to hide behind “discussions” because in a discussion you actually provide sources if you make claims. Especially if you are trying to start one, to give the readers a chance to read up on the topic.
You “getting a detail wrong“ has a huge impact. Some people will stumble upon this post, read that signal is supposedly insecure and might believe it and even spread that. It hurts the adoption of a secure encrypted messenger. It is not a small detail, but the foundation of your whole post.
And I am mostly right, I just seem to have been wrong on the detail about Signal push notifications. […] This comes from the DOJ senator Wyden saying these corporations can secretly share this data with governments and can include the unencrypted text which is displayed in the notification.
No, you are mostly wrong about the claims you make! Again your post made the connection to signal. Push notifications for Signal NEVER contain sensitive unencrypted data & do not reveal the contents of any Signal messages or calls–not to Apple, not to Google, not to anyone but you & the people you’re talking to. Source
“spreading misinformation” is a phrase mostly used by feds when they see something they consider to be “wrong think” or not “politically correct”. They use this anti-misinformation campaign to support their censorship and mass surveillance system.
I don‘t appreciate you, trying to frame my correction of your blatant misinformation as trying to censor you. Don‘t try to play the victim.
You think i’m intentionally spreading misinformation and I think you are a fed. I won’t argue more against you but anyone fair and objective can see that the mistake I made was a simple mistake to make. feds have as a fact been spying on our push notifications in secret and i thought that included signal’s push notifications. Simple mistake which I already admitted to being wrong about. You are making this into a bigger deal than it has to be because you are a fed.
You also are intentionally lying (because you are a fed) about that is the only thing the topic is about. For example, if someone is using Signal on Windows OS then I think there’s a high chance the conversation isn’t private. But I think you already know all this but you pretend not to.
This is hilarious and sad at the same time.
You continue to misunderstand the word “misinformation”. It is incorrect information spread without intent. A mistake made that leads to incorrect information spreading, falls into that category. Especially as it is in the starting point of the discussion, where sources should have been provided.
The need to feel victimized and a little bit of paranoia is strong in you, you should talk to someone about that. I am guessing that is caused by the lies and disinformation spread by your political party of choice. (I am only mentioning politics, because you brought it up with the feds conspiracy theory)
If you went and looked at my account history, you would see that there are a few comments in german and my account is registered on a german server and coincidentally I am German. So much for your fed theory.
My criticism has been nothing but constructive. I implore you for the future to do research using credible sources and to cite them, before making claims that could have a big impact. That goes for discussions on lemmy and as well in real life, when you are discussing or forming an opinion on an important topic.
I hope you get the help you need!
“spreading misinformation” is a phrase mostly used by feds when they see something they consider to be “wrong think” or not “politically correct”. They use this anti-misinformation campaign to support their censorship and mass surveillance system.
Immediately jumping to discredit and dismiss instead of engage by way of over generalization and accusation is not a good look my man.
Got to start somewhere.
The way I see it, any step is better than no step at all.
There are no shades of grey in encrypted communications.
Your messages are either plain text or not to 3rd party.
Sometimes it appears to be encrypted, but there loopholes that make it possible to significantly reduce decryption costs. It is plain text to those who put the loopholes, like specially crafted constants in the algorithm.
There are indeed shades of grey. Not only the presence of encryption itself matters, but the metadata, as well as details of the implementation. For example, Signal has all the messages encrypted - but it has the capability to know the identities of everyone and to build their social graph due to centralization.
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I figure it’s best to assume that there is no privacy on the internet.
I’ve been in IT to close to 40 years and I don’t say anything online that I wouldn’t say in public.
Be paranoid in your estimation of how much privacy you have, but diligent in your efforts to get more of it for everyone.
Will people read this and stop using the internet or stop caring about privacy?
I’m not saying don’t use the Internet. I’m saying be aware, be careful. Don’t let companies sell your information. Use two factor authentication. Encrypt everything you can. Scan your system for malware. Don’t open suspicious emails. Be proactive, but realize at some point someone could compromise your security.
That is not “no privacy” though. Absolute privacy is probably unachievable indeed, but you can be pretty high on its spectrum.
Cynicism is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If everything’s bad then there’s no reason to care, and if nobody cares then everything will be bad.
For things to get better, or not get worse, cynics depend on others to care about those things. To me that feels terribly like freeloading.
Just because someone chooses not to be a privacy advocate, I don’t think that means it is universally accepted that they are “freeloading”.
Usually the people who I see make these kinds of arguments are the ones that don’t participate in normal society and live in a bubble, and pretend capitalism isn’t necessary for most people to live their lives.
Signal is not my tool of choice, so I’ll answer from a more general perspective:
Having multiple friends and social groups on an e2ee chat system for the past few years feels great. Knowing that our words aren’t being recorded and exploited by half a dozen companies, we no longer feel the need to self-censor. The depth and value of our online conversations have grown noticeably.
Yes, there is more work to do, both at the endpoints and in the protocols. No, not all of us have flipped all the switches to maximize our privacy yet. That’s okay. Migrating is a gradual process. We do it together, helping each other along the way, rather than trying to force it all at once. Every step an improvement.
This is exactly my take. It basically holds for Signal too.
The question of self-censorship is too often overlooked IMO. The knowledge that nobody is reading your messages except their intended recipients is empowering and liberating. No one is filling a database with information about you and your friends, because they can’t. You can say exactly what you would say at the dinner table and not think twice about it.
In a police state with mass surveillance (we all know the big examples) you don’t have this privilege. Whether or not you think about it consciously, you are constantly monitoring and policing what you say - and therefore ultimately, to some extent, what you think.
I’ve been in a couple of those places recently. I can tell you that just the banal act of using Signal there (sometimes over VPN) felt almost exhilarating, like jumping the prison walls.
In historical terms, free speech is a vanishing rare thing. It absolutely is not the norm and it bothers me that so many people in the West don’t seem to know this. We should not take it for granted.
I don’t know how the Play Store version does push notifications, but Molly, and I think the apk from their site, work just fine on degoogled phones without Google services.
I don’t remember what name it has, but missing it breaks push notifications on most “normal” apps. Many FLOSS ones are coded to have their own methods that don’t transmit data to Google, and it appears at least some versions of Signal do too.
My threat model doesn’t include state level actors taking an active interest in me, so for my purposes Signal would be secure enough, if only I got people to adopt even it.
“Feel,” “happy,” “comfortable”… Privacy doesn’t care about your feelings.
And it has also been revealed that american feds are able to read everyone’s push notifications and they do this as mass surveillance.
Speaking of the feds, it was they who funded the creation of Signal, which is one of the reasons it ought not be trusted.
They funded encryption too. Why don’t you stop using that?
History shows that you shouldn’t automatically trust encryption technologies from the US government.
- Scientific American: NSA Efforts to Evade Encryption Technology Damaged U.S. Cryptography Standard
- Washington Post: How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on countries for decades
Just throw your whole computer out the window.
There is plenty of space between absolute trust and its contrapositive.
Why don’t you fork Signal? Then, you’ll know the glowies aren’t funding you.
Which lines its libre software source code are malicious? Know what libre software is?
Totally pointless since the chokepoint is Signal’s US-domiciled back-end server, and Signal doesn’t allow you to self-host it.
Wow, the whole argument of the article is basically: funded in part by US government = bad, and making a lot of assumptions, nothing more.
The fund is designated to: “support open technologies and communities that increase free expression, circumvent censorship, and obstruct repressive surveillance as a way to promote human rights and open societies."
One should question the commitment of a fund that dedicates itself to “obstructing surveillance”, while being created by a government who runs the most expansive surveillance system in world history. And how the US might define the terms “human rights”, and “open society” differently from those who know the US’s history in those areas.
How laughable, that is not an argument, it’s nothing more than a guessing game, ignoring that there are different parts of government and different objectives can be true.
Signal’s use luckily never caught on by the general public of China, whose government prefers autonomy, rather than letting US tech control its communication platforms, as most of the rest of the world naively allows. (For example, India’s most popular social media apps, are Facebook and Youtube, meaning that US surveillance giants own and control the everyday communications of a country much larger than their own). Signal instead became used by US and western activists, and due to the contradictions of surveillance capitalism, also now its general populace.
You have to be kidding right? Championing china, which created a fucking surveillance state and is heavily monitoring the citizens, as an example?
Yeah, Signal is good enough. If people use shitty operating systems like iOS or Google’s version of Android that’s another problem and not really one that it’s my job to care about that much. What matters is the network effect and every user who moves moves from Whatsapp to Signal is one more person who gains the freedom to easily improve their digital lives further if they someday choose to do so without it costing them the ability to chat with all their friends.
The problem I have with Signal is that it itself pushes people onto the “shitty operating systems”. It does not allow registering from desktop, at least officially. There are workarounds, but they’re cumbersome (especially for a non-technical person, whom Signal is supposed to appeal to), and the official client outright tells you go to use a phone first. And even then, apparently the desktop client is not even full-featured, and not the priority.
I know there are degoogled OSes (running Graphene myself), but you’d need to get lucky or choose a phone with this in mind, while a random given laptop is likely to be able to run Linux.
I would certainly advise everyone to choose a phone with that in mind.
The desktop client is not great, but it works. There certainly are things Signal could do better. Its phone-centric nature is ridiculous and I have no idea why they cling to it. But it’s easier than trying to get everyone to use Matrix or whatever — mainly because more people have heard of it.
Signal runs a service. Even if its source code is open source there’s no guarantee that that’s the code running on the server.
I don’t know the protocol, but I am concerned of man in the middle and how safe it is from man in the middle. In this case signal servers must be considered to be man in the middle.
The only system to trust is peer to peer with proven track record of sending encrypted data over public channels.
That’s PGP and Delta Chat utilizing PGP.
Finally, someone who knows the difference between software and a service.
