• Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    There are numerous pro-Soviet historians as well, you’re not referencing anything, just calling upon the mystical and undefined idea of “Normal Historians.”

    I’m not really talking about pro or anti-Soviet historians. just the majority of the prominent ones who have studied the subject. Preferably you’d want to trust historians who avoid thinking of historical stuff as some pro-anti thing as you’ve framed it.

    It’s one document, and yet more than anything you’ve provided beyond vibes. Do you have any actual evidence?

    Sources for the Wikipedia article are linked with as [1] that. I can paste them here if that’s what you want, for easier access I guess.

    • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      I’m not really talking about pro or anti-Soviet historians. just the majority of the prominent ones who have studied the subject. Preferably you’d want to trust historians who avoid thinking of historical stuff as some pro-anti thing as you’ve framed it.

      Name one.

      Sources for the Wikipedia article are linked with as [1] that. I can paste them here if that’s what you want, for easier access I guess.

      Are you saying you stand by all sources listed in the Wikipedia articles, even the ones that have been contested or outright disproven?

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        Name one.

        For the dictator claim? Martin McCauley is cited on Wikipedia. Oleg Khlevniuk too. Some others, but you asked for one.

        Are you saying you stand by all sources listed in the Wikipedia articles, even the ones that have been contested or outright disproven?

        I was just noting that the sources for the claims are there. Wikipedia is just a convenient thing to refer to, as you know.

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Okay, and what did these historians explicitly claim? Did they say Stalin alone controlled the entirety of the USSR uncontestably?

          • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            2 months ago

            As it relates to the conversation, that Stalin was a dictator. Khlevniuk’s book is literally titled Stalin: New Biography of a Dictator lol. So they certainly believe that the requirements for calling him a dictator has been sufficiently fulfilled. Both “Stalin: New Biography of a Dictator” and “Stalin and Stalinism” are available to read, if you catch my drift, but if you want me to recite parts from them for you, you’ll have to wait for me to get home.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              I’m aware. What specifically did they say that led them to that claim? Did they change the definition of dictator, or did they provide sufficient evidence that Stalin had absolute and all-encompassing control of the entire USSR?

              • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                2 months ago

                I’m reading the Stalin and Stalinism (3rd edition) book and it just seems to be the run-of-the-mill dictator stuff. Violence, intimidation, cult of personality, so on. If you want a quote, then there’s page 59-60, here’s a short excerpt (because pasting from a pdf is a bitch):

                How did Stalin’s state function? The twin pillars of power were the party and the government. The party acted as a parallel government and checked on the implementation of the plans. The flow of information was restricted. The more important an official, the more he was told. The party watched the government, but the political police watched both. Key decision making was centred in Stalin’s own chancellery, presided over by a trusted official, Poskrebyshev. All the threads came together in the chancellery, all the information was pieced together there, the jigsaw was complete. Stalin was the only person in the entire country who saw the whole picture and he skilfully used the information available to him. Stalin’s power was not based on control of the government or the party or the political police. It involved exploiting all three. It was vital to Stalin that he should maintain several independent sources of information; in that way he hoped to judge which source was misleading. After 1936 he successfully prevented any body, be it the Politburo or the CC of the party or the government, meeting as a group and taking counsel together independent of him. He preferred to consult individuals or small groups, and here his tactics were based on setting one person against another. This explains why there were only two Party Congresses between 1934 and 1953, for they were frankly unnecessary. Stalin very seldom left Moscow. He disliked mass meetings and was always con- scious of his Georgian accent. He restricted the number of people who had direct access to him and in so doing created a mystique around his person.

                And so on. I haven’t as much time to check out Stalin: Khlevniuk’s book “Stalin: A New Biography of a Dictator” but it seems to have the same opinion and describes the usual features of a dictatorship and Stalin’s role as one. Some short quotes, page 137 onwards:

                Would a man living in serious fear of attack venture—let alone relish— such an excursion? The intensification of repression that came in late 1934 was prompted by more complex calculations. Kirov’s murder provided an ideal pretext for action of the sort any dictatorship relies on to promote its central task: solidifying the power of the dictator. Admittedly, by late 1934, Stalin was already a dictator, but dictatorships, like any unstable system of government, depend on the constant crushing of threats. During this period, Stalin faced two such threats, which at first glance appear unrelated. The first was the remnant of the system of “collective leadership” within the Politburo, and the second was the survival of a significant number of former oppositionists. These threats belonged to what might be called Bolshevik tradition. They hung over Stalin like a sword of Damocles, reminders that there were alternatives to sole dictatorship. His fellow Politburo members enjoyed significant administrative, if not political, independence. They ran the various branches of government and had a host of clients from within the party and state apparats. The bonds of institutional and clan loyalties, along with the vestiges of collective leadership and intraparty democracy, were the last impediments to sole and unquestioned power.

                Between 1935 and early 1937, the persecution of former oppositionists was accompanied by shake-ups at the highest echelons of power. The Kirov murder strengthened the position of three enterprising young men: Nikolai Yezhov, Andrei Zhdanov, and Nikita Khrushchev. Yezhov’s promotion was especially significant. It was on his shoulders that Stalin placed direct responsibility for conducting the purge. After acquitting himself well in fabricating cases during the Kirov Affair, Yezhov was entrusted with a new assignment—the Kremlin Affair. In early 1935 a group of support staff working in government offices located in the Kremlin—maids, librarians, and members of the Kremlin commandant’s staff—were arrested and accused of plotting against Stalin. Among those arrested were several relatives of Lev Kamenev, who was charged with hatching the plot. 81 The arrestees came under the authority of Stalin’s old friend Avel Yenukidze, who over- saw the running of all Kremlin facilities, and he was accused of abetting the plot. 82 Stalin took a great interest in the Kremlin Affair. The archives show that he regularly received and read arrestee interrogation protocols, made notations on them, and gave specific instructions to the NKVD

                This desperate act shows how helpless the Politburo members felt before Stalin, whose control of the secret police made him an indomitable force. The vozhd’s long-standing comrades-in-arms, to say nothing of middle-level functionaries, were a fractured force. They fell all over one another in an effort to ingratiate them- selves with Stalin, each hoping to save his own skin. Such was the state of affairs when the already thinned ranks of the nomenklatura convened for the February–March Central Committee plenum of 1937. During the plenum, Stalin ordered that repression be continued, and Yezhov made a speech calling for a case to be brought against the leaders of the “right deviation,” Nikolai Bukharin and Aleksei Rykov (their fellow “rightist,” Mikhail Tomsky, had already killed himself in August 1936)

                Pasting from those books is such a pain that if you want further clarification, I hope you check out the book and maybe in turn point out what you disagree with in their characterization of Stalin as a dictator. To me it seems all very run-of-the-mill description of one.

                • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                  2 months ago

                  You’re getting your resources from Martin McCauley, a Pro-Western Anticommunist who wrote dozens of Anticommunist books during the Cold War. A grifter, so to speak. Additionally, he is a member of the Limehouse Group of Analysts, a Zionist, Islamophobic, pro-NATO, pro-Western group of political analysts with ties to the Defense Industries of Western Countries.

                  Additionally, he wrote your quoted texts from before Soviet Archives became public.

                  This is why it’s important to vet your sources.

                  • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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                    2 months ago

                    It’s just that Khlevniuk seems to agree on the factual things mentioned in the books. So do other sources I look up. And this particular book is very highly regarded as far as I can tell. They do all paint a very clear picture if you ask me.

                    It’s absolutely important to vet your sources but usually so you know to expect some factual errors. If there’s something erroneous in the book related to his description of the Stalinist state and Stalin’s position in it, you should definitely point it out.

                    Additionally, he wrote your quoted texts from before Soviet Archives became public.

                    The revised 3rd edition is from 2003. It does note in the foreword “Since the second edition of this book, there has been an explosion of published materials. Very revealing are the documents which permit a greater insight into the day-to-day decision making of the Stalinist state.” Haven’t checked if the chapter is unchanged in the 4th edition.