Damage dealing cantrips are pretty much guaranteed to one shot commoners and have a decent chance on low HP enemies.
Create water would have a lower chance if it was created in their lungs since they could cough it out, and at best get disadvantage for a round. Unless they were in a limited space where they couldn’t get their head out, then it would drown them like putting flammable substances on them and then throwing a Fire Blast.
All that said, I wouldn’t allow them to make water in the lungs because it doesn’t fit the theme of the spell any more than being able to cast Create Flame inside the lungs.
Well it depends on the circumstance. The “captured target” you mention is helpless. You absolutely can oneshot him with any number of cantrips, or other mundane actions. You could oneshot him with a “use an object” action if that object is a lever controlling a trapdoor over a deep pit.
Point is, you certainly can drown someone with 30 gallons of water. You just have to set up for it correctly. I don’t really like the implication of your comment and the original post that it’s unreasonable to try such a thing just because the number used to categorize the spell is too low.
When people try to drown someone with create water they aren’t talking about creating water then drowning the person the old fashioned way, it’s “I cast create water in the lungs of that guy!”
Other popular “ideas” include -
-Casting light on someone’s eyes so they go blind
-Trying to target eardrums with shatter
-Conflating charm person with dominate person
-Attacking with mage hand
-prestidigitation solves every problem and has no limits
It’s not that there is an arbitrary “number too low” problem, it’s that these spells explicitly state what they can do. Players sometimes feel “creativity” means they perform actions the spell doesn’t allow, and moreover are actually achieved by much more powerful spells.
Funny enough, in b/x D&D this was explicitly allowed. They got a save though, and light was a 1st level spell, not a cantrip so it was more like color spray that also gave you a magical light that followed you around afterward than an infinitely castable save or suck cantrip.
it’s “I cast create water in the lungs of that guy!”
I mean that just obviously doesn’t work because you don’t have a clear path to that guy’s lungs. His clothes and skin and bones are in the way. Furthermore, a creature’s lungs are not a container, and even if they were, it would be difficult to argue that they are an open container. But there are still a wide variety of ways it would be possible to drown someone using create water, and personally, I would sooner assume that the hypothetical player involved is considering one of those ways rather than a completely nonsensical way that doesn’t even begin to fit with the basic rules of spellcasting.
Its a resource management game. Either you use your imagination and roll a few chance dice, or you use an appropriate resource for it. Which is why killing a target that isnt already captures with a cantrip one shot doesnt work.
I don’t know why anyone would put that much effort into doing something so convoluted if not just to prove the point that they could. Which feels like it’s against the spirit of the game.
It’s not even the “use object” action that kills them as much as fall damage, which is not defined by the level of the one pulling the lever. This is more comparable binding someone to an anchor and pushing them into a body of water. It’s not a personal ability, it’s an environmental effect.
I don’t really like the implication of your comment and the original post that it’s unreasonable to try such a thing just because the number used to categorize the spell is too low.
This seems the best reason to refuse it, frankly. Spells have a reference of how damaging they ought to be, that’s what HP is supposed to measure. It’d be just as easy to say “but if fire/acid/steel hits the target just in the right way that’d kill them on the spot”. The main reference we have to whether it hit them good and how much they can endure is the HP. Why shouldn’t we be using the numbers the game gave us expressly for the purpose of measuring power?
If we are just gonna bypass these basic mechanics with improv, why not to let the Fighter player say that they are trying to cut off the enemy’s head with every hit? But if we let that fly we aren’t playing D&D anymore, just some loosely d20 based improv.
A 1st level spell focused on damage does at most 3d8, but Create Water is definitely not focused on that. The most generous version of that I could accept is 3d4 damage with a dex save for no damage, because if they close their mouth and stop breathing it just doesn’t work. You might end up running out of spells slots before the target dies.
I’d caveat it slightly: should a cantrip or level 1 spell always one shot a target?
If there’s some creative use in a specific unique situation where it’s justified, I think I might be warranted since it could be cool and fun without breaking the game. If it’s something they can do in almost every encounter, then definitely not
Indeed. Context is key. But lets not count the exceptions to make the basic rules shall we not ?
Of course if you use Produce flame to burn the heavy chandeleer right over the troll to make it fall down, you could make more than 1d8 fire damage in a round. But the chandeleer is doing the heavy lifting here.
Best way to decide is this : should a cantrip or level 1 spell one shot a target ?
No. No it shouldnt. Disintegrate can because its a very high level spell slot. But resources wise, foot the fucking bill please.
But I would allow its use to torture a captured target by waterboarding.
Damage dealing cantrips are pretty much guaranteed to one shot commoners and have a decent chance on low HP enemies.
Create water would have a lower chance if it was created in their lungs since they could cough it out, and at best get disadvantage for a round. Unless they were in a limited space where they couldn’t get their head out, then it would drown them like putting flammable substances on them and then throwing a Fire Blast.
All that said, I wouldn’t allow them to make water in the lungs because it doesn’t fit the theme of the spell any more than being able to cast Create Flame inside the lungs.
Well it depends on the circumstance. The “captured target” you mention is helpless. You absolutely can oneshot him with any number of cantrips, or other mundane actions. You could oneshot him with a “use an object” action if that object is a lever controlling a trapdoor over a deep pit.
Point is, you certainly can drown someone with 30 gallons of water. You just have to set up for it correctly. I don’t really like the implication of your comment and the original post that it’s unreasonable to try such a thing just because the number used to categorize the spell is too low.
If the target is already captured or subdued, nothing can oneshot them. That’s just coup de grace.
“one shot” says to me that it instantly kill or removes as a threat an as-of-yet untouched and un-interacted-with target.
When people try to drown someone with create water they aren’t talking about creating water then drowning the person the old fashioned way, it’s “I cast create water in the lungs of that guy!”
Other popular “ideas” include - -Casting light on someone’s eyes so they go blind -Trying to target eardrums with shatter -Conflating charm person with dominate person -Attacking with mage hand -prestidigitation solves every problem and has no limits
It’s not that there is an arbitrary “number too low” problem, it’s that these spells explicitly state what they can do. Players sometimes feel “creativity” means they perform actions the spell doesn’t allow, and moreover are actually achieved by much more powerful spells.
Funny enough, in b/x D&D this was explicitly allowed. They got a save though, and light was a 1st level spell, not a cantrip so it was more like color spray that also gave you a magical light that followed you around afterward than an infinitely castable save or suck cantrip.
I mean that just obviously doesn’t work because you don’t have a clear path to that guy’s lungs. His clothes and skin and bones are in the way. Furthermore, a creature’s lungs are not a container, and even if they were, it would be difficult to argue that they are an open container. But there are still a wide variety of ways it would be possible to drown someone using create water, and personally, I would sooner assume that the hypothetical player involved is considering one of those ways rather than a completely nonsensical way that doesn’t even begin to fit with the basic rules of spellcasting.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/cemh20/using_createdestroy_water_to_kill_someone/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/vqyu78/create_or_destroy_water_in_someones_lungs/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/cdtb5c/can_create_food_and_water_be_used_to_drown/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/ql764n/so_weve_all_heard_of_the_fill_their_lungs_with/
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/31598-flooding-somones-lungs
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-create-or-destroy-water-to-kill-someone-in-D-D
There are more. So many more. I just got tired of copying and pasting.
Its a resource management game. Either you use your imagination and roll a few chance dice, or you use an appropriate resource for it. Which is why killing a target that isnt already captures with a cantrip one shot doesnt work.
I don’t know why anyone would put that much effort into doing something so convoluted if not just to prove the point that they could. Which feels like it’s against the spirit of the game.
It’s not even the “use object” action that kills them as much as fall damage, which is not defined by the level of the one pulling the lever. This is more comparable binding someone to an anchor and pushing them into a body of water. It’s not a personal ability, it’s an environmental effect.
This seems the best reason to refuse it, frankly. Spells have a reference of how damaging they ought to be, that’s what HP is supposed to measure. It’d be just as easy to say “but if fire/acid/steel hits the target just in the right way that’d kill them on the spot”. The main reference we have to whether it hit them good and how much they can endure is the HP. Why shouldn’t we be using the numbers the game gave us expressly for the purpose of measuring power?
If we are just gonna bypass these basic mechanics with improv, why not to let the Fighter player say that they are trying to cut off the enemy’s head with every hit? But if we let that fly we aren’t playing D&D anymore, just some loosely d20 based improv.
A 1st level spell focused on damage does at most 3d8, but Create Water is definitely not focused on that. The most generous version of that I could accept is 3d4 damage with a dex save for no damage, because if they close their mouth and stop breathing it just doesn’t work. You might end up running out of spells slots before the target dies.
I’d caveat it slightly: should a cantrip or level 1 spell always one shot a target?
If there’s some creative use in a specific unique situation where it’s justified, I think I might be warranted since it could be cool and fun without breaking the game. If it’s something they can do in almost every encounter, then definitely not
Indeed. Context is key. But lets not count the exceptions to make the basic rules shall we not ?
Of course if you use Produce flame to burn the heavy chandeleer right over the troll to make it fall down, you could make more than 1d8 fire damage in a round. But the chandeleer is doing the heavy lifting here.