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- cross-posted to:
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It really irritates me when IoT devices force you to use “the cloud” for access. My home automation consists of roughly 100 devices. The vast majority are Zigbee, but a few use wifi. With the exception of my irrigation controller, all the wifi devices are blocked at the firewall from accessing the internet. The fact that I have to send a command half way across the country to a remote server only so it can send it right back to my home network when I want to change the watering schedule for my plants is ridiculous. Sure, I could buy a different controller, but I already spent $300 once. I’m not doing it again.
You should explain this to your plants so they show the appropriate level of gratitude.
Will wifi switches locked down to home network only still function?
If it has an API that can be used locally, then sure. That’s the whole point of Zigbee, is that it’s an open standard that any IoT devices can connect to and use. So you can send local commands to any local Zigbee device, as long as they have an API that allows for it.
Open standard… hah… like bacnet was supposed to be? More and more i deal with bacnet devices that make some data unreadable (proprietary) so what was the point?
Agree with other posts about sending data to the cloud to work. Also I’m certainly way behind on my washing machine tech because I can’t fathom a reason they should be online. So I can get an alert when the cycle is done? Ok fine… stupid but fine - as long as it stays local.
It depends on the switch. If it has an API or an app that can be used locally, then yes.
LG’s app is an absolute privacy nightmare too. That app must be used if you want access to any smart appliance features and it requires precise location permissions 100% of the time. Even then, the app features are mediocre, it doesn’t work very well and often doesn’t notify of a finished wash load until long after it’s completed.
Why anyone would want to allow their washing machine manufacturer to continuously track their exact location in exchange for some crappy, poorly implemented features is beyond me.
The LG app also checks SafetyNet/Play Integrity so you can’t use it with root. They probably fear that you can then unleash how much more of a privacy nightmare it is.
I just use a timer on my phone … average wash cycle I use is about 30 minutes … just set a timer on your phone … KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid
They probably want to see at which aisle your washing machine spends the most time on its grocery trip.
Just looked at the app’s permission settings on my phone… set to only allow location while being used.
Like you I don’t see much use for the app, though the notifications can be handy if you want to know when a load us finished and you can’t hear it’s beeps. I work out of my basement with my washer upstairs so that can be the case with me. But still rare that I ever use it.
I deleted the app and disconnected my LG appliances from wifi over a year ago. Maybe they fixed the issue.
Thinking back, I seem to remember that in order to receive notifications the app had to be running in the background while phone location was turned on, giving LG precise location tracking all the time. Is that no longer the case?
I don’t think so. I’ve had the notifications off though so I’m not 100%. I turned them back on so I’ll know soon enough.
Thats gonna me my new excuse when I loose in CoD. The washing machine was clogging up the Network.
It was busy uploading a sock.
If you buy a “smart” washing machine and actually connect it to the internet, you deserve what you get.
I can think of a few smart functionalities of a washer that’d be nice. None of these would be motivation enough to buy one though, unless it was open source, which I’d guess isn’t a thing.
Yeah, I wouldn’t mind getting a notification on my phone … sometimes I don’t hear the little chime or I do but I’m the middle of something and forget.
Exactly. That’s a small benifit to potentially sacrifice your privacy for though, so they’re still a hard sell for me.
Literally get a vibration sensor and an esp32. Push notifications for a change in sensor value. Hoorah. No one needs to start it from their phone. You physically have to move the shit around anyways.
The smart people don’t connect these “smart” devices to the network
I don’t even let my smart TV connect to the internet. Why would I help it fetch ads for me lol
That means you don’t get any of the benefits of it being a smart TV. Which is fine, but unlike a washing machine there are actually obvious benefits for a smart TV.
Not like there’s a choice to not buy a smart TV.
Everything comes internet enabled, runs software that won’t receive updates, comes with a shitty phone app, and some sort of subscription service either to enable features or auto buy product.
Yeah except you can’t really find a TV without the “smart” features anymore and I already have an echo cube thingy that does the smart stuff lol. So in my case it’s not really a waste to leave it off. My other TV is connected to the internet and I can’t even go to the gd settings page without being bombarded with ads it’s super dumb
Bought “smart” LG fridge, range and dishwasher a couple of years ago and never connected any of them, they function like they are supposed to, refrigerate, heat food and clean dirty dishes. No need to connect.
Fridge manual explained something like “in case of peak energy consumption your smart energy company can send a signal to your fridge to not use power”. What the heck do I need that for? To find spoiled food and mold growing in the fridge later on?
Why does one need to connect a range to WiFi?
Some people have hourly electric pricing, in their case it’s worth scheduling stuff based on predicted pricing. How that should work is that you’d have a home server which controls your IoT stuff (so the gadgets themselves can be firewalled from the internet and controlled only by you) and then your server would fetch pricing data and pause stuff that doesn’t need to run when prices are high and run stuff like washing when it’s cheap
TIL - cool, makes sense.
It would make sense if we had a server that could fetch prices instead of opening up potential weak systems to the internet.
Because now manufacturers are tying the last year of their warranty to having the devices connected to their stupid information harvesting apps.
Ugh! Now that you say that we are probably not far away from WiFi enabled ranges being a feature… that WHEN enabled will allow you to:
- Cook uninterrupted or at any time of that day
- Get discounted prices on gas
- Get discounts on home/renters insurance
- Receive discounts on range/oven cleaners
- Enable the back burners
- Enable broiling capability
- Allow in oven light to be turned on and off
- Claim warranties (as you suggested)
As a guy with some tendencies to worry if I turned my stove off Everytime I leave the house, this feature seems right up my list of needs
Thanks for that pov! I had not considered it and to my surprise I just thought of someone in my family that has the same type of worry you do, and that person would probably benefit from that kind of peace of mind like you suggested.
It would be so funny if washing machines were the first to become sentient
“Wash my clothes”
“No…”
Well the missing socks have to get sent somewhere… /s
You wouldn’t download a sock
I’m too lazy to Photoshop it into a real image
Modem = Materializer and De-Materializer
There are probably 3 main groups of people with WiFi appliances:
- The vast majority of people don’t care, and put it on their normal WiFi router and would never notice something like this
- A smaller group of people don’t care much, but pay attention to their bandwidth usage and would spot an appliance trying to send 3.7 GB of data a day
- A much smaller group of people are paranoid and would put the device on its own isolated subnet, or use firewall-type features to limit the access their appliances have to the Internet.
My guess is that if this were a widespread problem, people in the second group would notice, or would have immediately checked and chimed in and said “holy crap, mine is doing this too”. I didn’t hear many people saying that, so I’m guessing this is a bug, and it’s either a one-off weirdness, or it’s a bug related to people in group 3 who are blocking their appliances from being able to connect to the Internet.
It’s probably something as simple as a badly programmed firmware update check that doesn’t do exponential backoff when it fails. It probably connects, fails, then immediately tries again. A proper exponential backoff would wait before trying again, and if it failed again it would double the wait time down to some minimum value like once per day or something.
Incidentally, this is also why claims about smartphones monitoring people’s conversations when they’re supposedly off is BS. That would require either huge amounts of bandwidth to transmit all the conversations, or huge amounts of computing power inside the phone to decode the voices. Either way you’d be using tons of battery, and probably a significant amount of bandwidth. There are enough paranoid people out there that if this were a real thing, someone would have caught the devices doing it by now.
How do I know this kind of thing ? What app can I use to measure this for my devices at home ?
If you have anything where internet is an add-on to what it does normally, especially BS like a washing machine, then it’s phoning home. That’s the reason they add such nonsense, and sell it as a feature to the buyer.
They have to run a backend for this stuff which eats into the profit of selling it…
That said, Wireshark is a common tool to monitor packets. I haven’t done it for a while. There’s also probably a package you can run on RPi just for this kind of thing. Using PiHole I can see how often and where devices are connecting. I’ve blocked a lot of domains - I’m currently blocking about 30% of all domain requests (most of that is from the TV and windows 10) and everything works fine.
The software would need to be on the router itself so that it can intercept all traffic that is originating from the LAN (Local Area Network) and is directed at the WAN (Wide Area Network, the Internet), some higher end (home) routers have this feature, or you could see if your router supports a third-party firmware and flash that, which most likely supports it.
The other (more complex) way is to put a device in between your router’s LAN port (usually called the Default Gateway in software terms) and the rest of your devices on the network so that it intercepts all the traffic and then forwards it to the router. This is a technique known as “Man in the Middle”.
If you want to simply know if devices are “phoning home”, and potentially blocking those requests, you can use a service like NextDNS or PiHole (on a Raspberry Pi, or in Docker) to block the attempt. This happens because the device doesn’t know where to send the info.
No it couldn’t. My washing machine cant connect to my network! I can’t think of a valid reason why I would even want that.
I can think of a very valid reason. I very often forget that I ran the washing machine, I’m already investigating how to send a notification to my phone or computer after it is done. Right now I am checking how much electricity it consumes and when it stops doing it. But a API would be nicer.
What about a NFC tag that starts a timer on your phone?
They sell clean/dirty indicator magnets for dishwashers for like $2.
Yeah, I don’t get it. I guess I can see the appeal of some “Internet Of Things” connected appliances, like smart fridges suggesting recipes and keeping track of stock and auto-populating shopping lists for you. I don’t need that personally, but I can see why it could appeal to some people.
But things like washing machines and dishwashers? You need to be there in person to fill them up just before they’re ready to go on, and to empty them when they’re done. And when they’re not turned on, they’re sat there doing nothing. What “smart” functions can they even offer?
The joke when I was a kid was the remote control toaster.
Just put the device on a separate wifi without internet access, or look at the “child protection” features of your router. Ours can put devices based on their MAC into “access groups” which range from “full access” over "internet from \ to " to “no internet at all”.
Kind of wild we’re getting to the point where various pieces of equipment, with hardware we don’t want to use, need to be tricked into connecting to a fake network in order to prevent themselves from publishing their credentials.
And that’s if we assume there aren’t open Wi-Fi networks they won’t connect to automatically, in order to do their dirty deeds undeterred by their pesky owners.
Luckily, most embedded devices lack the smart to attach to two networks at the same time. So you keep it locked into a network where it can only do your bidding, and it won’t listen to anyone else. Unless they built in some very crazy and nefarious code and drive around with network enabled cars in the owners neighborhood.
puts on tin foil hat
https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/
Wait, I don’t need a tin foil hat for this… It was national news
At the point it becomes impossible to buy hardware that doesn’t have a Wi-Fi antenna in it, I’ll get really worried regardless. Tricking a device into connecting to the right wifi network already is so wild, and people shouldn’t have to do that. I’m smart enough to. Not everybody is. Not everybody has the money for an extra router.
Not everybody has the money for an extra router.
No need for an extra router. I just put those device into the “has no internet access” group. It is one of those “Parental Control” things. Every device inside the net can see and talk to it, but itself cannot talk to anything outside.
Which is understandable… To me, anyway. Until the router needs to be reset, or something else happens to it.
Come to think of it, I’m not sure if my router hardware actually supports this possibility. I’ve got a PiHole, but I’m also not the average person I play telephone tech support for.
Until a robot can hang up my washing, my machine is staying off any networks
When it can you should still setup a private network just for them to communicate
Was it being used as a node in a botnet? Or did it glitch somehow to keep sending over and over again? I can’t image that behavior is nominal for that washing machine.
His router fucked up reporting stats.
I have this really complicated home setup where I have these little switches on the walls and they control the lights it’s very clever.
With home automation sure I could turn the lights on and off in a room I’m not in but since I’m not in that room I don’t see the point. Anyway I can just pretend I’ve done that and then I’m not in the room so I won’t know it hasn’t happened. I really don’t see the point.
You can get home automated door locks, why. In what scenario would you ever want to unlock the door except when you’re in front of the door?
When you want to let someone else in?
If there’s a person I want to be able to gain entry to my property when I’m not there then I’ll give them a key.
It just seems like a solution in search of a problem. Worse still it’s a solution that might be hacked. Security locks, and key safes are far cheaper and much safer.
If someone wants to get into my house they can break a window. I’m more concerned about my money being stolen remotely than someone unlocking a smart door lock. The use case is for the person cleaning your house. Many people would leave their door unlocked for cleaners to get inside.
Or give them a key.
I’d like to have a door lock that did not allow wireless unlock, but does allow locking and checking status to see if you forgot to do so (plus automations tied to the door state).
With automations, you can also do stuff like locking the door under certain conditions (say it’s late at night and it’s been left unlocked for X hours), sending alerts or updating other devices depending on the lock state. You could have it strobe your bedroom light if stuff is left unlocked late too etc etc
