I do want to emphasize that skulls are used by a lot of different groups. Anarchists and communists have used them, like in the case of Dnieper Division’s flag (frequently misattributed to the Ukrainian Black Army), the Kronstadt Rebellion, Paris Commune, Arditi del Popolo, and probably more. To be very tongue in cheek, “not all skulls.”
But yes, in this context ICE are nazis and they are using the skull for nazi purposes.
There are good skull and cross bones, and then there are bad ones. All the ones I posted are good ones! Although be careful with the Arditi del Popolo one, Italian fascists (blackshirts) used one that is VERY similar to the point of effectively being the same. The differences being the the antifascist one typically has red eyes and a red knife. The reason why both ended up using the same symbol is because they are both using the symbol of the arditi, Italy’s shocktroopers from WW1. The Arditi del Popolo were antifascists (many being former arditi from WW1), being made up of anarchists, communists, and just anti-fascists in general and fought against the blackshirts.
Sorry to double post, but in replying to another comment, I’ve found something interesting, edited it into my original comment… perhaps you have thoughts about it?
I imagine they likely aren’t related, at least not directly. Could have played an influence on why they did a challenge coin in the first place, but I’m not seeing any serious overlap in design and symbolism, besides the skull itself, and unlikely the flame and crown. Not saying they couldnt be related, but I wouldnt bet on it. It was a good possible lead, but I don’t think itll lead anywhere. But thats just my opinion and analysis. Someone else might see things I dont
Yep, the Nazis are far from the only ideological … or really just any kind of group to use skull / skull and cross bones type imagery, more broadly, its… well just a commonly recognized symbol of death and mortality, and can and has been applied in various contexts.
But, yeah, as you say… in this context… its pretty fucking clear the branch of … symbological (sp?) meaning they are intentionally descending from.
And… well the unfortunate modern truth of it is that many symbols have been essentially taken, or claimed or colonized, whatever, by Nazis. The swastika itself is an example of this, I’m not a super duper expert, but basically, the original meaning of the symbol was… in the context of Hinduism/Buddhism primarily around India, and it symbolized something like luck, life, renewal.
But the Nazis famously took it, mirrored it, and ruined it, and also confused the fuck out of a lot of Westerners who only understand the symbol and Aryans via Nazism, when… both topics/concepts have much deeper and interesting histories than simply being something the Nazis appropriated.
Heck maybe I’m remebering my own American history with rose tinted glasses, but I could swear that in the 90s, the Gadsden flag had not been so strongly linked to the… ‘so libertarian/ancap they actually overtly flip and become loudly racist fascists’ crowd… granted, I was a kid in the 90s, but my impression was that the actual Nazis hadn’t quite cottoned on to using the Gadsen flag, back then they were just mostly using out right Swastikas or KKK derived symbology.
Metallica had a damned album that was basically a subdued, recolored Gadsden flag, the black album, in '91, and while they’re obviously not saints or philosophers, I wouldn’t go so far as to call them just actual fascists, at that point in time.
But all that with a grain of salt, thats just me trying to remember my white trash, white supremacist adjacent, evangelical upbringing.
Update: Here, yeah, Hetfield seems to be somewhat dismayed about how the particular song, and gadsden snake imagery, was warped into having a meaning that he says he did not mean to convey:
Metallica’s use of the image was a reference to the second single from the album, titled “Don’t Tread On Me.” As for his use of the image, he said this in an interview with MusicRadar in 2022,
“‘Don’t Tread on Me’, I love the song, but it shocked a lot of people, because everyone thought it was pro-war when they thought we were anti-war, and alls we’re doing is writing songs, we’re not standing politically on any side. ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ was just one of those ‘don’t *** with us’ songs, and obviously referencing the flag and the snake and what it meant, that all tied into the black album and the snake icon on the album cover, and I think it’s great to play that song live. We’re over here in Europe playing it, and people aren’t appalled by the songs. We haven’t played it in Iraq or Iran yet, though.”
Yeah I mean… “we’re basically dumbass fence sitters and we just want to make cool music with extremely broad market appeal” isn’t exactly commendable, but holy shit are there … way, way more overtly fascist metal bands, at least nowadays.
With the swastika it shows up in pretty much every culture and religion, not just hinduism. But also the symbol does typically share similar meanings. And yeah the Nazis obviously appropriated it and ruined it. Fascism is an ideology of aesthetics, vibe over substance. It is also an ideology of paradoxes and contradictions.
Its funny, I’ve actually known (via the internet at least) a few actual ‘Nords’, Finns, Swedes, Norweigans, who are actually quite pissed off by white supremacists increasing adoption of Norse gods and mythology, as they either take the religion … well, a degree of seriously, as a religion, or they just immensely value the stories as foundational to their culture.
Yep, fasiscm is an almost entirely vibes based ‘ideology’, which ultimately eschews reason, and embraces emotion, theatrics, and rhetoric… all to mask the worldview of a hateful, selfish bully, that really just wants to hurt whoever they identify as ‘the problem’, and anyone who doesn’t agree with their hate.
As Chaplin said:
“The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed - the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish…”
I do want to emphasize that skulls are used by a lot of different groups. Anarchists and communists have used them, like in the case of Dnieper Division’s flag (frequently misattributed to the Ukrainian Black Army), the Kronstadt Rebellion, Paris Commune, Arditi del Popolo, and probably more. To be very tongue in cheek, “not all skulls.”
But yes, in this context ICE are nazis and they are using the skull for nazi purposes.
There are good skull and cross bones, and then there are bad ones. All the ones I posted are good ones! Although be careful with the Arditi del Popolo one, Italian fascists (blackshirts) used one that is VERY similar to the point of effectively being the same. The differences being the the antifascist one typically has red eyes and a red knife. The reason why both ended up using the same symbol is because they are both using the symbol of the arditi, Italy’s shocktroopers from WW1. The Arditi del Popolo were antifascists (many being former arditi from WW1), being made up of anarchists, communists, and just anti-fascists in general and fought against the blackshirts.
Sorry to double post, but in replying to another comment, I’ve found something interesting, edited it into my original comment… perhaps you have thoughts about it?
I imagine they likely aren’t related, at least not directly. Could have played an influence on why they did a challenge coin in the first place, but I’m not seeing any serious overlap in design and symbolism, besides the skull itself, and unlikely the flame and crown. Not saying they couldnt be related, but I wouldnt bet on it. It was a good possible lead, but I don’t think itll lead anywhere. But thats just my opinion and analysis. Someone else might see things I dont
Fair enough!
Absolutely, always good to give more context for anyone further interested!
rambling semi-associated thoughts encapsulated herein
Yep, the Nazis are far from the only ideological … or really just any kind of group to use skull / skull and cross bones type imagery, more broadly, its… well just a commonly recognized symbol of death and mortality, and can and has been applied in various contexts.
But, yeah, as you say… in this context… its pretty fucking clear the branch of … symbological (sp?) meaning they are intentionally descending from.
And… well the unfortunate modern truth of it is that many symbols have been essentially taken, or claimed or colonized, whatever, by Nazis. The swastika itself is an example of this, I’m not a super duper expert, but basically, the original meaning of the symbol was… in the context of Hinduism/Buddhism primarily around India, and it symbolized something like luck, life, renewal.
But the Nazis famously took it, mirrored it, and ruined it, and also confused the fuck out of a lot of Westerners who only understand the symbol and Aryans via Nazism, when… both topics/concepts have much deeper and interesting histories than simply being something the Nazis appropriated.
Heck maybe I’m remebering my own American history with rose tinted glasses, but I could swear that in the 90s, the Gadsden flag had not been so strongly linked to the… ‘so libertarian/ancap they actually overtly flip and become loudly racist fascists’ crowd… granted, I was a kid in the 90s, but my impression was that the actual Nazis hadn’t quite cottoned on to using the Gadsen flag, back then they were just mostly using out right Swastikas or KKK derived symbology.
Metallica had a damned album that was basically a subdued, recolored Gadsden flag, the black album, in '91, and while they’re obviously not saints or philosophers, I wouldn’t go so far as to call them just actual fascists, at that point in time.
But all that with a grain of salt, thats just me trying to remember my white trash, white supremacist adjacent, evangelical upbringing.
Update: Here, yeah, Hetfield seems to be somewhat dismayed about how the particular song, and gadsden snake imagery, was warped into having a meaning that he says he did not mean to convey:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/articles/features/the_story_of_the_artwork_on_metallicas_black_album_and_the_unexpected_band_that_inspired_it-161365
Yeah I mean… “we’re basically dumbass fence sitters and we just want to make cool music with extremely broad market appeal” isn’t exactly commendable, but holy shit are there … way, way more overtly fascist metal bands, at least nowadays.
With the swastika it shows up in pretty much every culture and religion, not just hinduism. But also the symbol does typically share similar meanings. And yeah the Nazis obviously appropriated it and ruined it. Fascism is an ideology of aesthetics, vibe over substance. It is also an ideology of paradoxes and contradictions.
Its funny, I’ve actually known (via the internet at least) a few actual ‘Nords’, Finns, Swedes, Norweigans, who are actually quite pissed off by white supremacists increasing adoption of Norse gods and mythology, as they either take the religion … well, a degree of seriously, as a religion, or they just immensely value the stories as foundational to their culture.
Yep, fasiscm is an almost entirely vibes based ‘ideology’, which ultimately eschews reason, and embraces emotion, theatrics, and rhetoric… all to mask the worldview of a hateful, selfish bully, that really just wants to hurt whoever they identify as ‘the problem’, and anyone who doesn’t agree with their hate.
As Chaplin said:
“The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed - the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish…”