- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
I wouldn’t send too many troops to Greenland, Putin’s not dead yet.
Still no troops for Ukraine.
Sure but Ukraine is not in NATO…
Yeah, pisses me off. The entire defence of Europe falls upon Ukraine’s shoulders.
To be fair Greenland belongs to the EU, Ukraine not.
Edit: To be more exact: The people of Greenland belong to the EU, so the EU has a much greater obligation to protect them (in contrast to Ukrainian people).
No, it isn’t part of the EU.
It is part of the Kingdom of Denmark, which isn’t in the EU. Only Denmark, a country within the Kingdom is in the EU.
However, the citizen of Greenland are citizen of Denmark, thus EU citizen.
But you are right that Greenland has a closer relationship with the EU, then Ukraine. And the EU and allies want to protect its citizens at least. And via its member state Denmark, the constituents of Kingdom of Denmark as well.
Edit: To be honest, I have no clue what happens to citizen of Greenland, if US would take over… Would they be EU and US citizen? Would they have to leave? Well… Let’s hope that doesn’t get answered anytime.
deleted by creator
Why are people upvoting this? Greenland left the precursor to the EU.
If North Korea can have nukes, Ukraine can have nukes. Every nation in europe should be able to have nukes so long as russia, china, israel, north korea, and america has nukes. Ukraine shoulda kept their nukes, but thats just hindsight. Nato should be giving ukraine nukes, not bodies. Once israel, north korea, russia, america, and china de-nuke (in that order), then we can discuss any further kind of nuclear disarmament. Until that seemingly impossible scenario arises, nuke up, europe.
How about no one should have nukes?
I laid out the plan for that, yes. America wont budge. Until then, more nukes. Ukraine needs to get nukes and can lose their nukes again when north korea does
Maybe back off the propaganda for a minute?
Anyway we are fucked up as Europe. We are digital colony of USA… everything relies on us companies…
Plus NATO was a great way for most countries to relax on military draft and spending… here’s the result.
And be dependent on usa ;)
Which rely on (soon to be) Chinese chips
Taiwan will level TSMC if China ever invades.
And the US depends on China.
Europe finally figuring out that they are about to be fighting a two front war against a fascist invasion.
It’s 3.
One inside.I keep saying this.
The US has decades of experience destabilizing South America through the CIA.
They just have to keep funding far/right parties/movements in Europe and soon enough we’ll have EU-versions of ICE.No invasion necessary.
Their enemies will be the unlikliest of allies.
Sounds familiar
Oh how the turn tables.
Putin couldn’t be happier by this chaos and distraction from Ukraine. Investment paying off.
Krasnow has earned a special price for that .
I wish people would quit saying this. If Trump was a Russian asset, why would he be seizing Russia’s shadow fleet and destroying Russia’s influence in Venezuela? Why would the CIA continue to give the Ukrainians targeting information and why are American weapons still flowing to Ukraine via European allies?
Trump is not a Russian agent. He is simply America manifest. He is selfish, narcissistic, and always looking to blame other people for his own failings. Putin may have given Trump a little boost because Putin figured the outcome would be beneficial to him overall, and Trump has a weird submissive man-crush on Putin like he does on any other authoritarian who Trump secretly wishes he could be, but in the end he’s not helped Putin and now Putin is irrelevant. This has nothing to do with Putin any more. Russia is a fading regional power on its last dying gasps before China takes it over as a client state.
America is doing this of its own volition. They can’t blame everything on Putin.
The fantasy that this is all entirely the fault of outside influence gives everyone a nice, comfortable “out” for not having to get involved or feel like they’re not doing enough.
They’re not doing enough.
Yeah. I get uncomfortable shades of the “stab in the back” propaganda from interwar Germany, where the Nazis blamed everyone except Germany for World War I. If the Americans can’t understand that they’ve done this to themselves then they’re never going to recover from it.
Stop bursting people’s bubbles. It’s their personal soap opera.
lmao this kid saw, “Russia if you’re listening,” the Mueller reporter (did not exonerate), numerous Trump cabinet members imprisoned for speaking to Russian spies, Krasnov and Steele dossier, Trump flying to Moscow in 80s only to within weeks upon return out a full page ad abolishing NATO in 3 major newspapers, saw the hand-delivered letter flown to Moscow by Rand Paul on behalf of Trump; saw numerous GOP Congressmen fly over to Moscow to have private meetings on 4th of July no less.
… And apparently cannot connect the dots lmao.
I see utterly selfish people taking advantage of each other. I see no “loyalty” beyond the immediate moment.
The Steele dossier was a fake.
Unverified? Yes. Corroborating some of what we already know? Also yes.
Proven fake? Definitely not. That is unless you are to believe the word of Republicans and Trump.
Proven fake? Definitely not.
Thats not how the burden of proof works. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
-
Ad Ignorantiam fallacy states otherwise.
-
“Fake” is itself an assertion requiring evidence, independent from stating neutrality, e.g., “We don’t know whether it is true or not.”
-
Also, circular-reasoning fallacy: Who says they’re extraordinary claims within the context of what we already know?
-
They aren’t seizing Russia’s fleet, they were seizing Venezuela’s fleet, the one carrying hard to refine crude oil. They are more interested in the Exxon and Chevron tankers Ukraine continued bombing. Owe a bank 10 bucks, it’s your problem. Owe a bank a million, it’s their problem. Those countries gave their gold and resources to Russia. Now, when they expect to receive support back, the US is giving them an excuse why they don’t need to as long as they perform a bit of false flag theater they are so accustomed to. Russia gets to double dip when the Russian stooges send the last of their gold deposits and wealth to Russia to retire there.
Russia wants to assist Trump while feigning their part as the “enemy”, yet they always manage to work lockstep in the grand scheme of things. So much so, that I expect that when the US does launch an operation against Greenland, they will try to be sneaky about it yet do it with Russia’s help, likely from one of the detachments claiming to be following one of the shadow fleets.
Russia considers its allies temporary and expendable, they’ve sacrificed theirs in negotiations to cooperate with the US to divide up their direct influence into hemispheres. Russia is specially interested in restoring the old USSR borders, but now just any win will do and they are a willing participant to Trump. Getting rid of competitors and letting go of the political baggage of their allies once exhausted is what they do. The regime puppets have already sent all their gold to Russia to try to secure their retirement within their borders. Russia treats its allies like the US is starting to.
Strictly speaking, Trump is not a Russian asset, he’s everything you claim him to be, but he also is quite willing to work with Russia and other criminal elements to get himself ahead. Russia is his ally because they have mutual interests and Russia was never in it to build an empire spanning the globe. Iran was not useful against Israel, they’ve provided all the support they could to Russia, and now they are becoming too costly to maintain because of all the spheres of influence they are in conflict with. Venezuela still has the same regime, if anything one that is even more of a stooge, both to Russia and the US. Those “captured” shadow fleets are just another form of money exchanging hands.
Dictators usually end up turning on each other, but usually after they’ve run out of prey to play with and have to deal with their own consequences of their own actions. The US still has plenty of momentum in its drive towards fascism, and they will get more out of treating Russia as a shadow false flag ally that reverting back towards the old democratic world order that would condemn his own country’s shift towards a dictatorship.
Trump is not a Russian agent.
But agent of all the world’s reactionary oligarchy. Oil sheiks, pharma tycoons, techbros, and of course Russian mobster oligarchy in both business and politics. What flag they fly doesn’t matter, it’s all about the money. And power. And the ability to control the rest of humanity as chattel.
All having the desire to create their dystopia, end progressivism and diversity as we know it, and wanting to have their money roam anywhere and spend how much they want while the rest of the impoverished suffer further.
Despite some losses in Ukraine, despite embargoes and boycotts, Putin is still feeling like he’s winning in the propaganda war that was very long in the making since Khrushchev, as he used all the skillsets he had as a master spy, and years or even months away from excitedly watching the US collapse in the mire of its own hubris.
edit: Can you stop talking about Trump doing this on his fucking own? Bastard got slotted as a candidate to become Iblis of the world by Roy Cohn, and just happened to dovetail with Russian geopolitical interests, specifically Dugin’s concept of Russian world order.
You wanna know who’s really gonna win this once the dust settles? China, which I’m sure if their idea of a New World Order prevails based on trade (with strings attached), will have dozens of developing countries and even some developed countries under its fold. And that’s not a benevolent setup for the future, just yet another Gilded Age but with Xi Jinping characteristics.
Trump is nobody’s agent. He is a demented narcissistic psychopath who craves attention and adulation. Since he has no understanding of love or friendship, the only tools he has at his disposal to get it is power and dominance. He wants to be a “winner”, which to him means he needs to make everyone else around him “losers.” By hurting them, by degrading them, by taking away their trappings of wealth.
There are other people who try to use Trump, because he’s very easy to manipulate when you understand him. He has no principles or standards other than those I described, so there’s lots of obvious buttons to press. The problem is that none of those buttons stay pressed. Even if Trump had the mental capacity to remember things from day to day it wouldn’t matter to him because no deal or position he holds lasts longer than the moment he thinks of some way to get something “better.” Trump can be manipulated in the same manner that a handful of mud can be manipulated. It won’t stay in the shape you put it in and it’s constantly slipping through your fingers.
Putin may think that he’s responsible for Trump’s actions, but only by coincidence and never in any sort of long-term strategic sense. And the reason Trump is in charge of America is because the Americans wanted him to be.
Destroying the shadow fleet is something the US military is doing, and I’m sure trump is doing everything he can to drag his feet.
Maduro had outlived his usefulness, he was a liability; by having the US seize control it doesn’t substantially reduce Russian influence, since Russia now has a much stronger hold over American politicians than back when Venezuela was a vital proxy.
Destroying the shadow fleet is something the US military is doing, and I’m sure trump is doing everything he can to drag his feet.
Trump has been bragging about seizing those ships. He’s not dragging his feet. You really think Trump wouldn’t be raging his head off and firing generals left and right if the US military was doing that stuff against his wishes?
by having the US seize control it doesn’t substantially reduce Russian influence, since Russia now has a much stronger hold over American politicians than back when Venezuela was a vital proxy.
You’re delusional. And I say that as a Canadian who has absolutely no love of America. Venezuela was dependent on Russia for its own defense, America isn’t.
Shh. The world is black and white.
Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden and Canada are sending troops to Greenland
The netherlands is sending *troop. One guy.
Tjack Norrees
A government spokesperson for Germany also confirmed to Reuters that soldiers would be sent to Greenland on Thursday. The country is expected to deploy over a dozen reconnaissance troops, according to the report.
:-/
This feels like the time Poland sent eight soldiers in with the US invasion of Iraq.
It’s 13. Germany is sending 13 soldiers. Literally the minimum to be able to say “over a dozen”.
Hi. I have to step in about Polish soldiers :p I don’t know what you’re referring to but there were 2500 Polish soldiers deployed to Iraq, 150 wounded and 28 dead. That was during very hard economic times for Poland, still recovering from communism. Somehow they found money for this and sent them with really shitty equipment (cars “armoured” with bulletproof vests on the doors as protection for example)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_involvement_in_the_Iraq_War
That was during very hard economic times for Poland, still recovering from communism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcerowicz_Plan#Effects
:-/ Like saying they’re still recovering from a charlie horse after you put a shotgun to their kneecaps.
But yes, Poland limped into the Iraq War and managed to catch several hundred strays over the course of the conflict. In exchange, the Bush Administration kicked the country back $200M in relief (contingent on further privatization and financialization of their nascent market system).
Blood money spends well, at least.
It’s more than they sent to Ukraine!
These are advance troops that will figure out logistics, where it makes sense to deploy a bigger force. What they need, and infrastructure.
They are also a deterrent, if german soldiers are killed shit will hit the fan.
Often called “tripwire forces” when they were NATO troops stationed in Eastern Europe. Their purpose is to force the adversary to kill some people before it can take any territory, ensuring that they can’t simply make it a fait accompli and hope there will be no further repercussions.
It just says that they will be participating in some exercises. Nothing about permanent force.
Yo Mr. Mertz brief this guy on the real plan and what orders you gave those soldiers!
Should this article also state what they will be having for breakfast?
I wish I was still so naive I believed EU has some secret plan to defeat US. Especially Germany, country that was blind to the threat Russia posed for two decades. Yeah, I’m sure they will go to war over Greenland now…
It’s also funny that they are open about sending this tiny group of soldiers, something they could easily hide, but are hiding the plan to send a bigger force, something that will be impossible to hide. Kind of silly, really. Almost like thinking that Germany would commit any permanent force to Greenland without informing their own public.
It’s all a show yes, they try to show tough now, but will fold once Trump makes any real move for Greenland.
I mean, we’ll see. But if the US really is serious about taking Greenland by force, you’ve got a US military base already on the island that’s been running these defense calculations for decades. It’s going to be an uphill climb just to reach parity with the Americans on securing the territory. I hope this isn’t perfunctory, and someone is asking the question “How do we deal with one or more US aircraft carriers?” seriously.
You mean like that time when a Swedish diesel sub bypassed all the defenses and “sunk” the US carrier?
Or that time when Netherlands sub “sunk” one?
Or that time when Australia “sunk” one?
Or that time when Canada “sunk” one?
Those carriers are far from invincible.
The USA is historically bad at wars - Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea - all lost despite their massive military spending.
The only wars they won in modern times are the ones where they received help from their EU NATO allies.
They’re only good at “strike and run away” operations, like the one in Venezuela.
If they can’t take Greenland overnight, it will cost them very dearly to go to war with NATO, with no certainty of winning.
To add to this, the US is not that great in the Arctic. To occupy Greenland they need boots on the ground, and they are not equipped or manned to do Arctic land operations. EU + Canada surpass them in that. The US only has the one airborne division that are actually cold weather fighters. They also have far fewer ice breakers and the additional units that they were going to buy from Finland (who makes the best ones in the world) will surely be canceled.
To date, no US aircraft carrier has been lost in a military operation. You’re using “sunk” to describe military exercises that informed the US of all the strategies potentially deployed by these countries.
Those carriers are far from invincible.
If the Europeans want to put a US carrier at the bottom of the ocean, I’m not going to shed a tear. But you’re pointing to scrimmage runs and exhibition matches, while you’ve been letting Americans see your playbooks (hell, write your playbooks) for the last 60 years.
Put up or shut up.
Typical Americunt, picking and choosing their propaganda points and completely ignoring anything else. Exactly like your orange pedo cunt of a president.
Americunts keep losing their wars against much much weaker militaries and you haven’t won a proper war in decades.
Americunts can’t win a war without your EU allies because the EU are the ones with successful strategies, like how to bypass the “most advanced navy” defenses and sink their expensive carriers.
Americunts are only good at drive bys and hit and run attacks, you don’t know how to fight a proper war. Fact.
So no, Americunts have terrible playbooks. Good luck.
This part is particularly silly:
while you’ve been letting Americans see your playbooks (hell, write your playbooks) for the last 60 years.
Do you believe that other countries have been training alongside Americans for decades and have never picked up any knowledge of their skills, methods, strategy, tactics, doctrine, weapons, etc? Never learned anything at all about how Americans fight? The Americans are the most visible military on the planet, and the most gregarious, they’re in every country and training with all of these countries, and somehow no one ever figured out how they do it?
Do you believe that other countries have been training alongside Americans for decades and have never picked up any knowledge of their skills, methods, strategy, tactics, doctrine, weapons, etc?
I think when you’ve got 100x players on the field to their 1x, the learning curve tilts in your favor. EU members in subordinate roles and supporting positions, without command and control access to the biggest pieces of hardware, aren’t going to have the accumulated experiences of US veterans. Nevermind the amount of time the US has spent in the field relative to their European peers.
The Americans are the most visible military on the planet, and the most gregarious, they’re in every country and training with all of these countries, and somehow no one ever figured out how they do it?
I don’t think it’s a mystery at a high level. But that’s like saying “It’s no mystery how Tom Brady won all those football games”. When you get into the finer details, you discover why 13 years of Superbowls never produced a rival defense that could consistently shut down the Patriots’ Offense.
I suspect you have puddle-deep insight into global economic dependencies, the fragility of the US economy, the EU + Canada Arctic warfare capabilities, and the likely outcome of an invasion of a northern neighboring country that looks like you, sounds like you, and can hide in plain sight or hop over the indefensible border to bring violence to your homes. The US has no concept of a war that impacts their home country, and dropping some hardware and troops in a country on the other side of the planet, in a country with no economic connection to the US, is not the same thing. Even when the enemy has different skin and vastly different culture and language, they still end up leaving after decades of slaughter having accomplished nothing but huge debt for taxpayers, huge profits for oil companies and defense contractors, and piles of dead Americans.
So, to you I say - do it. Shit or get off the pot. Nothing will hasten the downfall of the shittiest form of America quicker than trying to go to war with the world. You are fighting for treasure, we are fighting for survival. And don’t be surprised if the strategy is to pretend to be humbled before Trump, who is incapable of seeing when he’s being manipulated, in order to slow play and draw out the inevitable internal and economic collapse.
aren’t going to have the accumulated experiences of US veterans
Oh man, this dinner is going to be so good when I have 100 chefs making it.
America lost a bunch in World War II. Since then they’ve been exceedingly careful not to risk losing them, always putting them up against foes that couldn’t hit back. Both because they’re expensive, of course, but also to cultivate the very myth that you’re falling for - that American naval power is “invincible.”
It’s not.
Are they going to kill German & French troops to do that? If there are UK troops there then goodbye to hundreds of billions in AUKUS $ too.
Europe depends more on the US than the US does on Europe. What would the EU do? Sanctions, send more troops, war?
The entire EU economy depends on American companies and would crumble in a few days, without even having to do any military action in Groenland.
Any US carrier strike group can probably sink the entire navy of most countries. This calls for a full NATO response because if it doesn’t then I don’t know what does
Wasn’t it one of the Nordics that ‘sunk’ an American carried in drills a while back?
Yes, the Swedish diesel electric subs are really quiet and hard to detect in a war game scenario, but that is done with many artificial constraints to the defending CSG, which is tightly packed in a relatively small patch of ocean that the Swedish sub knew and could plan for.
In reality those subs are stealthy only while traveling at 6 knots and the CSG can travel at 30 over vast expanses of water, with an effective strike range of 2000 miles.
Also, in war they’re allowed to use high energy sonars that they can’t use in a war game because it kills marine animals, which will detect a turd floating 500 miles away (exaggerating here but you get the idea).
It did, and the US considered the outcome so concerning that they requested to lease the submarine (but not install a crew - Swedish sailors would operate it in the US navy). Since those were different times, with only mild insanity among US presidents, Sweden granted the request.
Wikipedia tells us:
Secondment to United States Navy
In 2004, the Swedish government received a request from the United States to lease HSwMS Gotland – Swedish-flagged, commanded and crewed, for one year for use in antisubmarine warfare exercises. The Swedish government granted this request in October 2004, with both navies signing a memorandum of understanding on 21 March 2005.[5][6] The lease was extended for another 12 months in 2006.[7][8][9] In July 2007, HSwMS Gotland departed San Diego for Sweden.[10]
One of? I thought it was several…
It’s not about realistically fighting of the US if they decide to really go for it, but they will have to kill European soldiers if they decide to do so. This would effectively end NATO and the transantlantic partnership.
NATO isn’t a partnership between democratic member states, its a partnership between regional militaries.
The end state of the conflict over Greenland will be - if anything - a series of US-backed coups in European countries that preserve NATO by realigning the civilian leadership with the foreign policy of the US.
We’re already seeing this with the AfD in Germany, the Reform UK in England, and National Rally in France. These countries are functionally aligning with Trump as white-nationalist governments working towards the same end goals. And they’ve all heavily infiltrated their domestic militaries.
For those downvoting, it’s real and was leaked previously:
A purported leak from a document labelled as part of America’s National Security Strategy has sparked intense debate across Europe. The document allegedly suggests that the United States aims to weaken or remove the current ruling parties in France, the United Kingdom, and Germany
What? That didn’t happen. Poland sent thousands of troops to support the war.
200, in the year of the invasion. It swelled to 2,500 over the next five years, then trickled away into a final withdrawal a month before the Republicans lost the White House in 2008.
There were smaller deployments - Iceland sent 2 soldiers, for instance. But it all paled behind the the US at 150k and UK at 46k. Which goes back to the whole problem with a NATO internal conflict. The US is the backbone of European defense. Again, what do any of these countries plan to do against an aircraft carrier group? Nobody seems to have a serious answer.
Serious question: how will a carrier group fare in arctic ice during winter? Will it be what is needed to hold an Arctic island after showing up all bristly in the summer months?
While the USA’s relatively slim arctic-ready forces are deployed on the Atlantic side of the ice, what will be happening on the pacific side?
An answer: they can take it, but when winter comes, holding it will be difficult. The northern NATO members have notable infantry that can use the ice to advantage, and there are only five or six harbours of interest in Greenland.
Another perspective is that the US has military bases all around Europe. They don’t need to fight in Greenland if they can pressure opposing governments directly on their home turf
Serious question: how will a carrier group fare in arctic ice during winter?
Climate change has made this a receding problem, which is one reason why Greenland is suddenly hot property. In another ten years, you may be able to sail the perimeter of Greenland fully unobstructed all year round.
An answer: they can take it, but when winter comes, holding it will be difficult.
Holding it from whom? Nobody in NATO actually has the stomach for the kind of losses they’d take.
Honest reaction to a serious question. The American military complex isn’t about specific fighting doctrine. It’s by far the world’s largest logistics organization. The airlift capacity of the military likely means that a carrier group wouldn’t have to stick around.
I have mental images of carpet bombing paths through sea ice. Ice is tough, but 500lb dumb bombs do pack quite a punch, and there is a big fleet of bombers that would operate with relative impunity once air dominance is achieved with the aforementioned carrier group.
Distract it from Putin. Who do you think is running this clown show?
Peter Thiel, Steven Miller, and David Navaro, by the look of things.
Still better than the orange juice America got from Israel for its wars.
Churchill once said of the Old World being endangered and hoping for the New World to step into the rescue.
But now, makes me wonder if the Old World could possibly do the same, but feels like a long shot.
It’s funny, most of the time when you hear it, it’s this quote
We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
Then it stops.
But the next bit is what you’re referring to
And even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God’s good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the Old.
I always thought it was odd because it showed the bond we have.
While it’s sad that things have even come to this at all, it’s good to hear someone is at least doing the bare minimum to stand up to Trump.
Patrolling the Greenland wastes almost makes you wish for a Mojave winter
