Someone has to pay the billionare’s bills
Yes, I am Fucking Pissed at my energy bills for the last 6 months. Like WTH. It is like $500 a month vs what was $300 max. I told my husband… it is time to start investing in solar generators. We are getting screwed for some stupid tech boy.
I would love if this creates some kind of decentralized energy network. You know how you can sell your energy back to the grid when you have solar surplus? We should have the option of choosing the rate too. If they don’t want to pay our prices, they don’t need our electricity,
I don’t know anywhere you can actually sell it back to the network, usually they just give you credits that deduct future payments, so you can’t ever get money out of it. But maybe that’s only some places.
You could when solar fist started becoming available. Energy companies quickly realized that if everyone did that, they’d have way too much power during the day, and none at night.
Our local co-op power generator barely makes it useful to have solar unless you also have battery storage.
In my naive view I don’t see why they wouldn’t just give less and less money until they’re effectively giving you none or even charging you for putting it back into the grid. It would then incenticize people to get battery banks and put it in during the night.
But again, naive view. Maybe I’m missing something obvious.
You know how you can sell your energy back to the grid when you have solar surplus?
I know this is for the USA, but I’d like to point out something really fucked: in Denmark, if you don’t use the energy your solar power produces, YOU have to pay the energy company for the extra electricity you put into the grid! Like… What‽‽‽
YOU have to pay the energy company for the extra electricity you put into the grid! Like… What‽‽‽
That might be logical in some situations. Where there’s surplus in the grid and it plays the role of amortizer of what you give it. They can’t just shut you off when they are getting too much load. Or they can but prefer to have a soft curve where you get less and less until you start paying for what you give.
Like water is a resource, but you do pay for water disposal (that is, I live in Russia, and there’s a separate line on the bill for what goes into sewers), or, if someone provides passive cooling service somewhere, you might pay for the heat you give away. Even if that’s energy.
Seems like you need a battery for your solar
We all have to do our part and stop using AI. It’s time to pop the bubble.
You think they’ll drop those prices when the AI pops?
Here in Germany we have balcony solar panels. They are just plugged into a socket - no electrical installation needed - and pay off quickly.
How does the outlet work putting electricty back into it? You sure it’s not a special outlet?
No. It is just wires that transport energy. Old power meters will even run backwards.
For safety, these panels have some electronics that switch them off when it is not plugged in, or during power outages.
Depends on the country iirc. But most European countries allow you to discharge 800 watt unless you install it on a separate breaker. Regular socket
I was surprised when I read about it too, but it’s true, they quite literally just plug them right into the normal plugs.
It works because there’s a certain tolerance on the German breakers that allow for power to reverse. The balcony panels take advantage of this. However this also limits the possible output to whatever the tolerance is, otherwise it would overload and shut off or worse.
How does that even work? Panel would generate DC current and outlet would need AC. Then even when you have AC, you need to match the frequency, if outlet AC has a peak in its wave and panel has a trough, would this not cause problems? Also, does germany has pure sine wave electricity? Or is it like 3 line and 1 neutral?
Edit: nvm, i guess it has a normal on-grid inverter system built in
@just_an_average_joe
You are right that this setup needs a DC-AC inverter often sold together with the PV panel and the inverter is designed for this purpose. It sort of rides on the sine wave from the outlet. Yes, this only works on one phase while the building gets 3 phases, but practically it does not matter since the meter sums all three phases.There was some debate over the technical standard and meter type, German bureaucracy and lobbying!
@bstixWe fought to make it legal and solar from the balcony just works. You plug the device into your regular 220V AC outlet.
Wikpedia has pictures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony/_solar/_power
In Germany you can buy those in home-improvement stores or online. Your local lidl or aldi might have one occassionally.
It’s the same grid as most of Europe. AC 3 phases 50 hz 230/400 V.
Other places can do the same, but it’s a legal issue rather than technical. It’s difficult to tax.
You can plug anything back into your how power system so long as the reverse current is not more than the ratings of the wires & equipment that current runs through.
In the US, most residential outlets are rated for 15-20 Amps at 120 Volts. You’d need to find a solar panel that matches these ratings. There are what’s called “AC solar panels” or just panels with micro inverters that transform the DC electricity from the panel to AC right on the panel itself. As long as the circuit you plug into is rated for it, you can plug as many panels like this into your home power system.
I’d have to check the National Electrical Code (NEC), but I believe that if you’re planning on making those solar panels permanent, and since the hypothetical ones in this conversation have “plug and cord” connections, you’d need to hardwire those panels with wiring hidden behind drywall. If you truly plan to use those panels temporarily, such as seasonally, maybe you can make the argument that you don’t need to do that.
It’s all up to your Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ), which is usually your town’s or city’s Building or Electrical Department.
It doesn’t have a direction.
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I have something like that I bought here in the US but the power generated won’t power the whole home. It does charge my emergency battery though for when the power is out.
to power the whole home you need a hell of a lot more than the balcony ones. but every little bit helps.
Right but the way I understand it is if you get the plug in style and let it generate some power during the day it will offset your usage and save you money on the bill.
Yes, lile that. There are also types (like the Anker generators for mobile homes / boats etc) which can run stand-alone, but the German balkony solar panels just add cheap supply to the domestic power use by plugging it into the household AC system.
I think you guys running 220 through the whole house is why we don’t have that stateside, just a guess.
No reason it can’t be done on 120v (from a technical level). In fact, most solar inverters in the US could do this at a technical level as they basically do the same thing, just on a larger scale (higher current and therefore are wired in to electrical panels rather than through outlet as outlets have lower current limits). All you need is the inverter to synchronize its AC output to match grid. If you had a smaller inverter, you could just connect it to an outlet (ignoring building codes, insurance, and other non technical reasons). So the choice is then to have centralized larger inverters or smaller inverters per panel or 2. If you live in a very densely populated area where you can only pit a panel or 2 on a balcony or you don’t have control of your electrical panel, then the small inverter method makes sense.
800w is less than half what you could pull from any outlet in the US. Standard electric breakers are rated for 15amp continuous at 120v. Most heating appliances designed to run for long periods of time (like electric heaters, or countertop cooking) run around 1800watts. So you could pretty easily plug in two 800w solar panels to back-feed a single circuit.
50amp 220v is about the limit on one circuit for most residential homes (for ovens, or electric central heating) which is what would be used for the fastest electric car charging at home.
That’s plenty of headroom for in-circuit solar generation.
Huh that’s neat, I didn’t know they just plugged into a socket. From what I know balancing the voltage and frequency of an electric grid is extremely delicate business, but I guess it’s fine since it’s so much electrically smaller than the main generators?
Also stuffing an inverter in random small electronics is probably so much easier than it used to be not that long ago.
What about batteries? Could you plug one of those big, AC camping “powerbanks” in between the solar and the mains? So that devices downstream are able to run directly off solar energy without going “into” and “out of” the grid?
If mains goes down they stop feeding in power within 10 ms, or so. Of course, you can illegally feed in more, if you know what you’re doing.
Sadly, Switzerland missed the oportunity and even conventional solar installations barely pay off now.
I have 54 solar panels that are 1x2m apiece (108m2 total), and they generate barely enough to keep my house running in the winter, and have to be supplemented by a generator in the winter for December and January since it’s entirely offgrid.
I don’t think a couple panels on a balcony are doing much more than charging a couple phones.
Since a lot of people live in rented flats, the 800w these so called “balcony solar plants” can cover your base load, thus reducing your electric bill. Of course they can’t support whatever setup you seem to have where 108m2 of solar can’t cover it
come on Muricans, stop complaining and get a third job to pay for the slop machine until the bubble burst and the you have to pay for the bailout
stop complaining, remember “you are not there yet”
I ran three jobs for a couple of years. I ended up high enough up in my current job that they’d take offence to a second job. And the market is shit. I just want to move to a nice quiet country where your neighbors aren’t an actual liability with decent healthcare and work until I’m dead giving my kids a chance at living a happy life. Is that too much to ask?
2024 and 2025 not included in their data.
How to pin someone else’s comment?
The star will save it so you can easily read it later. Click your profile name, and its the “saved” tab.
I got a bunch of effortposts from other lemminators saved for rereading.
Civilian bills increase while corporate discounts abound? Ya’ll need to fuck someone up with the 2A.
The idiots are convinced they’ll “be one of them someday”
Cue the “Fry, you arent rich!” Scene. Its very very real.
I have a friend that literally blames all problems in America on “The Poors” (his words) and when I try to tell him he IS the poors and is nowhere near rich, he doesn’t listen. Doesn’t believe workers should own the means of production because “when he owns HIS business, he wants to keep his money HE earned”
Brainwashed idiocy.
He rents, has a 20 year old car, is a bartender, and shops at Walmart exclusively. Also loves Grok.
America is doomed.
Always loved that Futurama scene, for the way it’s perfectly in line with Fry’s character and his amazingly broken reasoning facilities, while also just directly pointing out the bitter hatred of self, as a class, this kind of thinking always entails.
This shit is a failure of local and state governments, and the people who elect them. Now that AI costs are hitting citizen pocket books, many municipalities are fighting back.
“All politics is local.”
In particular, its a failure of state utilities commissions, which have power over electric pricing.
Don’t know about your jurisdiction, but we vote those people in and out around here. Well…
We used to have a quasi-private/public power company. County commissioners voted us out of that. (Still our fault.) We do still have such a water setup. For now.
You’ll find that representative democracy is not all that representative.
I suspect that it’s always been the case that bigger customers are able to negotiate better prices. 1 car a year vs 1000 cars a year? 200 pounds of bread a year vs. 200 tons of bread?
Big customers lock in deals for a fixed price of Y for X years.
Smaller customers can also get similar deals but retail customers (normal people) rarely can lock prices for more than 1 year. Most pay spot prices.
Huh? I’ve shopped power companies a lot and I’ve never seen one that didn’t offer a 3 year fixed rate.
That kind of choice is quite unusual in the US.
Then your area is better served. Large companies typically sign 10-15 year deals so my point remains relevant. Residential customers get slightly worse pricing, but much shorter deals.
Also, isn’t a steady state power consumption of a data centre easier to manage than homes flipping toasters on and off? I suppose that the inefficiency drives up the costs for home usage
My city still owns the utilities and the council doubles as the utility board. They’ve been trying to privatize it, but it’s very contentious. Rightly so.
just sayin’ this is still so incredibly cheap… 8c/kwh… australian electricity prices are 24-43c/kwh (obv usd vs aud but the aussie $ isn’t that weak)
yeah we have a “supply charge” that’s ~$1/day on top of that base rate too, so roughly the same situation :(
we’ve got this crap because of privatisation so it’s not likely to change any time soon.
i hope your energy prices come down when energy things stabilise in europe!
In Canada, the only province that historically has a rate that high is Ontario, and that is because they use Nuclear power, which is more expensive to maintain, and also they have no protection laws for consumers. So residents of Ontario pay what the US companies are willing to pay for power.
The neighbouring province, Quebec, uses primarily Hydro Electric dams, and has protection laws that restrict pricing for hydro power for residents of Quebec to a reasonable margin above cost, regardless of what the US is willing to pay for the power.
When I lived in Ontario, the price was $24c/kwh, while Quebec was $8/kwh
Ontario has had new laws passed with the energy board and now it appears their price is down to $14c/kwh according to this site, but I’m willing to bet that is highly dependent on surge pricing. Getting straight answer on costs is difficult these days with all the tiered pricing.
Apparently Alberta is more expensive than Ontario now… Must be all that “freedom” they have… Did they privatise electric in addition to everything else there? I’m not familiar with how their grid is powered… Maybe its oil/coal based. Which would be unsurprising.
God don’t I know it. Looking at 500 dollar a month electric bills and I’m possibly disconnecting my heat pump.
Where are you? That’s what I pay a year, granted I live in a shoebox.
Under the boot of Georgia power.
Well I’m sure you’ll be heating your place with Venezula heavy sour by next week!
That’s crazy, up north I’m paying $130 monthly this winter and it’s actually cold here
$600 last month to run my heat pump. Can’t really disconnect it because it’s 30 degrees here rn. Awesome
ok damnit, how many more servers do i need to install…
Indiana price increase in 2025 ~20% (I believe the new rates went into effect in November, and this does not include a base increase for having your house connected to the grid. I believe it was $10/mo increase making that % even larger.
The lowest rate I can find here in Texas was triple what I was paying last year.
It’s almost that time of the year when NY electric rates get hiked up and then get “frozen” to avoid further rate hikes while you conveniently get locked into that higher rate.
