Out of college, I got my first job at a decent salary. A woman I interviewed with saw the salary offer they gave me, and then promptly went to HR to demand that she at least make as much as I was offered. She had been at this company for 3 years. It shouldn’t be this hard. Women shouldn’t have to fight to make as much as men. Normalize discussing salary.
Socialize the information
I was pulled into a meeting with my director and told we’re not allowed to do this. I told her it absolutely was allowed under the law and she looked me in the eye and doubled down, stated that it has been like this at every company she’s ever worked at.
My complaint to HR resulted in the HR person telling me that while it wasn’t allowed, it was discouraged; which is also against the law.
My ethics report on both of them was “investigated and concluded”.
My call to the NLRB resulted in an overworked federal employee telling me I could make a complaint but it was unlikely to amount to anything against a company that size.
The rule with discussing salaries is that you can do it (and you should do it), but you shouldn’t let your managers know you’re doing it. The law is on your side, but nobody with actual authority wants to support you doing it.
So, if you’re on your way out in a contested wrongful termination case, there’s definitely leverage in pointing to your employer firing you for discussing salaries with your coworkers. But in every other case, you gotta play those cards close to the chest. Nod and smile and agree with every manager who says you shouldn’t discuss salaries. Then do as thou wilt.
I was one of 3 people aty office who got any sort of raise this year. It was based on merit. I’m thrilled about the raise, but I feel bad for my coworkers because management sucks. I discussed the raise with my work besties and one is pissed about it and the other is hyped for me.
I’m also faced with the dilemma of being important at work.
Being important can be tricky.
I work in a very small city, and I wear a lot of hats. I do plan review, permit processing, GIS, Open Records, vested rights determinations, some code enforcement, am the in-house IT guy, city photographer, and more.
What makes me valuable is my ability to multitask, and if I left it would be very hard to fill all those roles. But I’m also kinda a specialist in keeping plates spinning. My role is essential where I am now, but it’s fulfilled my specialists in each of those duties in other cities. My skills etc isn’t in high demand because there’s only a few cities in the country that have the the extreme development complexity we have while also having a municipal staff of fewer than a dozen people due to the city’s size.
In the same way, I discovered that everyone got paid. Except me. For a month. I left the job, best decision ever made.
I used to work at a shitty company that banned discussing salaries. I never thought anything about it because it was a call center and I just kinda assumed we had standardised salary across the board. One time when having drinks at a friend’s house who worked with me but had a higher position, I found his payslip lying around and I was making, I shit you not, about 70% more. Fucking hell.
I hope you told them when you left
Serious question: how do you start that conversation with a coworker if you’re not 100% certain they’ll be receptive?
“can you believe they only pay us X to do this shit?”
As someone who detests small talk, this is one of the few times when it is essentially.
First step is learning if they are a snitch. Second is seeing if they can be critical of workplace. Third is bringing up your own salary. Fourth is asking for theirs if they don’t immediately reciprocate on step 3.
In practice there are many ways this can happen. Here is one reasonable example:
Did you see the bosses [insert anything, tie, shoes, car, your pick] today. OmG!
[Wait a day or two for any sign that made it back to your boss. Prepare a convincing cover up story in the event he/she/it is a snitch.]
2-4
Our health insurance is terrible isnt it? I swear its like they pick the cheapest option. [Replace the above with any other unpopular opinion depending on how critical the response is of your workplace you can jump immediately to steps 3-4]
I heard a lot of employers like to pay people differently for the exact same work and I dont think thats right. Thats why I want you to know I make Y. If you make less I can help you argue for more. Do you mind sharing your salary too?
You can sometimes just jump straight to step 3 or 4 if you are feeling confident. But do be aware. You can save someone’s job and the boss will corner them in an office and some of them will still rat you out. Happened to me personally. The above isnt without risk. But do not be afraid of humans, especially middle management humans. They are usually the weakest people I’ve ever met.
When you’re running a place I want to work for you
Yep, that’s why companies try so hard to intimidate people into keeping that info secret. I think most if not every company I’ve ever worked for has had some version of
- It’s against company policy
- It’s illegal
- It will just create jealousy
And of course, my responses have always been
- Too bad, it’s federally protected
- Liar
- No, your payroll policies do that; same job, same pay
In the US, not only is it completely legal to openly discuss compensation with anyone you like, it is also illegal for your employer to tell you not to, or to retaliate against you for doing so. It is a highly protected activity.
If you’re in an at-will state, they can fire you this without saying this is why, and it’s very hard to prove this was why.
Montana is the only state where an employer needs “good cause” to terminate.
Though everywhere I have ever worked (in tech, in the US) it was highly discouraged to talk about salary.
We’ve been programmed to consider it rude to encroach the subject.
Ironically, the public sector makes salaries available to everyone to view.
Now you know that that is illegal.
Discouraged by whom? Bad passive voice.
Employers have all the power, though. It is they who may reliably hide behind the law for protection. Laws that protect employees are rare to be passed and rarer to be enforced.
You’re not wrong, but it’s worth contacting DoL if you need to on this one.
Worked for a payroll firm and 99.75% of lemmy would be astonished at how powerful the state labor board is. And this was in Florida! Hardly a bastion of labor rights.
“waGe TheFT!”
“Have you called the state labor board and inquired?”
“NOAWW! I’m a victim and I make memes!”
Only our worst client, and only 1, wasn’t scared shitless of a call from the state labor folks. And these clients were rock-bottom, minimum-wage employers like restaurants, churches and thrift stores. Part of our payroll service was protecting the employer from fucking over the employees!
While I’m on about knowing your rights, a $26 legal insurance plan can save you 10’s of thousands with a single use. I call mine every few months.
“Can they do this? What about this? What are my rights? What if I do this thing? What form do I fill out and how?!” Mostly super-simple stuff, but my divorce and child custody cases alone saved me far than I will spend in the next 40 years.
The difference between rich and poor is legal representation. $26/mo.
Support from the state is likely to vary based on local context and the current administrations.
No one should be naively hopeful.
It is most optimal to rely on labor organization for finding individuals with specific relevant experience.
Yeah, my buddy got fired from his job working at a hospital right after going on medical leave for a mental health diagnosis. Easy open-and-shut case of illegal discrimination. Not only has he been in a legal battle over it for several years now with no end in sight, but he’s had absolutely no luck finding jobs at other hospitals in the area, which given his experience is unusual, causing him to believe he’s been blacklisted in some way. For all intents and purposes the US legal system is pay-to-win, and employers are playing with very big pockets.
We are in agreement.
sometimes it doesn’t even benefit the company
as an example, I used to be partially responsible for my team’s hourly rates. we hired a proper manager though, and I am no longer responsible for that, and seemingly no longer even involved in that discussion.
as a result, I don’t know what some of my team members are paid, which means that I don’t know how to properly evaluate them and set expectations for their work output. if somebody is making $5 less an hour than somebody else, I’m going to expect less work product from them, and judge them according to that expectation. but I can’t do that without knowing their wage.
Unethical LPT: tell the colleague you find most difficult to work with, that you make far more money than you do. If they succeed in getting a raise, you’ll have an easier time getting one, too. If they fail, you know not to bother, and the difficult person will likely leave or be fired soon.
If they succeed in getting a raise
How are you supposed to know if this is the case? Just hope they tell you?
Just hope they tell you?
No, no. That is too unreliable. You can tell whether they got a raise by the odor of their farts. It’s unmistakable.
What? Hahahaha
Seriously discuss salaries. My coworker was making half of what I was making for doing the same job.
I am terrified everyone in this community doesn’t comprehend the actual problem.
If you’re working for a salary, you have already been robbed.
Ah yes, Marxism. Never fails to deliver interesting but impractical concepts about value creation.
Dividends are impractical?
Is that what they taught you at the NYSE?deleted by creator
I have several stories on this I like to tell.
I worked at a startup in NYC that was doing job-search related stuff. Find job postings, get resume advice, that kind of stuff. Someone in the customer service department found an article online about salaries, shared it, and then people were talking about how much they got paid. Management came down hard on this, and said it was a fireable offense to talk about salary. Everyone got real quiet on the topic after that. Was it illegal for them to do that? Maybe! But laws only matter when they’re enforced, and a bunch of entry level people making $30-50k a year don’t have the means to launch a legal challenge. That’s even if there’s enough solidarity to try, and the effort won’t be scuttled by scabs and bootlickers.
For extra irony, a couple years later the company launched an “Are you getting paid enough?” salary comparison tool.
I worked at a different startup in NYC. This one loved data. Data data data. They had t-shirts made that said stuff like “Data doesn’t care about your feelings” or whatever.
People started agitating about salary transparency. They wanted to know how much people were being made, because there was a sense that not everyone was getting paid the same for the same work. Also, some of us had in secret started comparing notes, and found some wide gaps.
Well, the CEO wasn’t having it. He said “we have salary bands”, but wouldn’t provide more detail on the range of the bands, who was in what band, and how it all worked. Just we have salary bands and they’re fair.
People didn’t like that, so he tried changing tactics. He said, “Who here thinks they’re being paid too much money? No one? No one wants a pay cut. Right. So that’s why we’re not going to release the specifics.” As if the only solution to Amy being paid too little is to lower Bob’s pay.
This is the same CEO, at the same “we love data” company, that when people brought up studies about four day workweeks being more effective, just shut it down with “We’re not doing that.”
Management and ownership don’t care. They don’t care about what’s legal or just. They care about power, and profit as a close second. I knew a guy that worked in a factory, and the owner reportedly would say stuff like “If you assholes unionize I will burn this place to the ground, and I don’t care if you’re inside or not.”
There need to be institutions, with teeth, to stop these kinds of things. If ownership even whispers an anti-union sentiment, they should lose everything.
Places like that you work hard, get the experience and title(s), leave. Rinse and repeat.
I did this once for an executive assistant. A few months after I was hired me and the assistant were talking and I told her how much I made because i was excited (it was a lot for me at the time). She mentioned she made like half the amount and had worked for 20 years for the company. I coached her on how to ask for a raise and showed her all the other people in the area making more than her and with that ammo she went and got a huuuuuuge raise. I was so happy for her.
Always talk about how much you make. The only reason it’s a taboo is because the owner class don’t want us to know how much everyone else makes because it’s easier to rip people off when they’re ignorant. Especially people who are mild mannered since they might not ask as many questions or fight back against pushback.
