When you have an explanation that works, and it produces a product that everybody would have needed on a daily basis (at least during part of the year), it has more credibility[…]
First: we’ve only found a few of these objects, in a few areas. Why weren’t they more widespread? Either 99.999% of Romans had gloves made some other way, or they didn’t have gloves. Why didn’t they share this development? Why didn’t it spread when it was so obviously better?
Second: why can’t we find any evidence of the required type of stitching, or of gloves being produced this way? Either they must have discovered a new type of stitching and then discovered these things and never mentioned them to outsiders, or nobody saw the obvious advantages. Which of these makes sense to you?
It’s completely fine to simply admit: we don’t know. The glove hypothesis makes sense, but it’s simply wrong to determine it as the correct solution without any actual evidence.
They have found over 130 of them, scattered across Europe. Presumably many HAVEN’T been found (and never will). Many may have been made of cheaper material like wood, that has deteriorated since then, leaving only the better quality metal ones. That is not a few, in a few places, that is widespread.
As for the products not being around: So what? ALL clothing of the time were natural materials, no synthetics, and they simply didn’t survive the cold, damp European climate. Very little textile has survived from the Roman era. Gloves, specifically, take a beating, and gloves with holes were probably thrown away, or more likely, unraveled, and the yarn put to new use.
And no instructions on its use? Did you know that in Europe, there is a museum dedicated to shoes that have been found in walls? As Europe was rebuilt over the last century, they started finding a single shoe in many walls, and started studying them, and eventually created a museum dedicated to it. It was clearly a custom for a long period of time that a shoe was put on the walls of a new building for some reason, but that reason has never been found anywhere.
House building back then would have been done by tradespeople who were mostly illiterate, and while they all knew about the shoe-in-the-wall thing, nobody was writing down their day to day activities and customs. So while we have no written explanations, it was clearly a widespread custom.
That’s just how history is - often infuriatingly unsatisfying.
They have found over 130 of them, scattered across Europe. Presumably many HAVEN’T been found (and never will). Many may have been made of cheaper material like wood, that has deteriorated since then, leaving only the better quality metal ones. That is not a few, in a few places, that is widespread.
No, that’s still very few, in few places. Why didn’t we find anything in the main areas of the empire?
As for the products not being around: So what? ALL clothing of the time were natural materials, no synthetics, and they simply didn’t survive the cold, damp European climate. Very little textile has survived from the Roman era.
So what?! So you can’t claim “these things were definitely used for this purpose”, since we have never found any evidence for this!!
House building back then would have been done by tradespeople who were mostly illiterate, and while they all knew about the shoe-in-the-wall thing, nobody was writing down their day to day activities and customs. So while we have no written explanations, it was clearly a widespread custom.
And that means I can come up with an explanation that makes sense to me today, and decide that it must be the correct explanation, even if surrounding requirements aren’t fulfilled, right? After all, we need neither evidence, nor for the necessary techniques to have been developed.
That’s just how history is - often infuriatingly unsatisfying.
Exactly! And we should leave it at that instead of making it satisfying by settling on a solution, regardless of missing evidence.
130 of a single mysterious item is an enormous amount! It probably represents a miniscule portion of the total that were around, and many of them, perhaps most, were probably made out of much cheaper and disposable materials than expensive metals, so that the average person could afford one. Most of those would be gone, and many more will remain buried forever.
Or perhaps the reason there aren’t more, is because it was a specialized trade, and used by a small number of people in a region, those who manufactured gloves, and sold them, as a living.
And creating an actual useful, popular product from an item is strong evidence for it’s purpose. If we found an old cart with four wheels, and we could start it and drive it, we would rightfully conclude that it was a mode of transportation, and the guy standing back and saying that we still don’t know what it is, until we find some operation manual, is flatly silly.
And creating an actual useful, popular product from an item is strong evidence for it’s purpose. If we found an old cart with four wheels, and we could start it and drive it, we would rightfully conclude that it was a mode of transportation, and the guy standing back and saying that we still don’t know what it is, until we find some operation manual, is flatly silly.
The only issue with your analogy is that the wheel hadn’t been invented yet, so all you found is a wooden plank. “But guys, they MUST have also invented wheels, it makes the most sense!” right?
Sorry, I missed the part where we hadn’t invented garments yet. /S
Why do you keep saying it couldn’t make gloves because they hadn’t invented gloves yet? Clearly, if this makes gloves, they had invented gloves.
Unless you mean something else? What exactly had they not invented yet that proves this couldn’t make gloves? Yarn? Goats/ Sheep? Cold hands? Fingers? Because I’m pretty sure they’ve had all those things going back to cavemen.
Not that your answer matters because I’ve seen people make gloves with it, so I know it can be used for that purpose.
First: we’ve only found a few of these objects, in a few areas. Why weren’t they more widespread? Either 99.999% of Romans had gloves made some other way, or they didn’t have gloves. Why didn’t they share this development? Why didn’t it spread when it was so obviously better?
Second: why can’t we find any evidence of the required type of stitching, or of gloves being produced this way? Either they must have discovered a new type of stitching and then discovered these things and never mentioned them to outsiders, or nobody saw the obvious advantages. Which of these makes sense to you?
It’s completely fine to simply admit: we don’t know. The glove hypothesis makes sense, but it’s simply wrong to determine it as the correct solution without any actual evidence.
They have found over 130 of them, scattered across Europe. Presumably many HAVEN’T been found (and never will). Many may have been made of cheaper material like wood, that has deteriorated since then, leaving only the better quality metal ones. That is not a few, in a few places, that is widespread.
As for the products not being around: So what? ALL clothing of the time were natural materials, no synthetics, and they simply didn’t survive the cold, damp European climate. Very little textile has survived from the Roman era. Gloves, specifically, take a beating, and gloves with holes were probably thrown away, or more likely, unraveled, and the yarn put to new use.
And no instructions on its use? Did you know that in Europe, there is a museum dedicated to shoes that have been found in walls? As Europe was rebuilt over the last century, they started finding a single shoe in many walls, and started studying them, and eventually created a museum dedicated to it. It was clearly a custom for a long period of time that a shoe was put on the walls of a new building for some reason, but that reason has never been found anywhere.
House building back then would have been done by tradespeople who were mostly illiterate, and while they all knew about the shoe-in-the-wall thing, nobody was writing down their day to day activities and customs. So while we have no written explanations, it was clearly a widespread custom.
That’s just how history is - often infuriatingly unsatisfying.
No, that’s still very few, in few places. Why didn’t we find anything in the main areas of the empire?
So what?! So you can’t claim “these things were definitely used for this purpose”, since we have never found any evidence for this!!
And that means I can come up with an explanation that makes sense to me today, and decide that it must be the correct explanation, even if surrounding requirements aren’t fulfilled, right? After all, we need neither evidence, nor for the necessary techniques to have been developed.
Exactly! And we should leave it at that instead of making it satisfying by settling on a solution, regardless of missing evidence.
130 of a single mysterious item is an enormous amount! It probably represents a miniscule portion of the total that were around, and many of them, perhaps most, were probably made out of much cheaper and disposable materials than expensive metals, so that the average person could afford one. Most of those would be gone, and many more will remain buried forever.
Or perhaps the reason there aren’t more, is because it was a specialized trade, and used by a small number of people in a region, those who manufactured gloves, and sold them, as a living.
And creating an actual useful, popular product from an item is strong evidence for it’s purpose. If we found an old cart with four wheels, and we could start it and drive it, we would rightfully conclude that it was a mode of transportation, and the guy standing back and saying that we still don’t know what it is, until we find some operation manual, is flatly silly.
The only issue with your analogy is that the wheel hadn’t been invented yet, so all you found is a wooden plank. “But guys, they MUST have also invented wheels, it makes the most sense!” right?
Sorry, I missed the part where we hadn’t invented garments yet. /S
Why do you keep saying it couldn’t make gloves because they hadn’t invented gloves yet? Clearly, if this makes gloves, they had invented gloves.
Unless you mean something else? What exactly had they not invented yet that proves this couldn’t make gloves? Yarn? Goats/ Sheep? Cold hands? Fingers? Because I’m pretty sure they’ve had all those things going back to cavemen.
Not that your answer matters because I’ve seen people make gloves with it, so I know it can be used for that purpose.
You won. This is the single most stupid response I’ve received all year. Congratulations - almost a photo finish!
That’s only because you don’t respond to your own posts.
Happy New Year!