Oh my g-d just let me fantasize about a universe where I don’t have to go to work in the morning and someone gives a fuck about my wellbeing and I don’t have to pay through the nose for gender affirming care in peace.
Why you gonna ask for all that, and then also add in an uncritical reproduction of the white settler benevolent slavery myth?
I kinda get it, because slavery is hot, but if you’re putting slavery in a story you’ve gotta examine it critically. You can’t have all of the fascist apologia and none of the left wing perspectives, otherwise you’re a fascist too. You gotta admit the affini are fascists and interrogate why you want to be a fascist’s property.
Are you sure? They definitely could be seen as an empire, but I don’t know about fascist. They economically speaking have communism in the compact. In fact they appropriate all the billionaires toys and redistribute as needed.
People I think are forgetting that slavery and fascism aren’t the same thing. Not even close. It’s also not the case that this is traditional slavery, they don’t take florets for economic reasons and most are volunteers.
They economically speaking have communism in the compact
Communism is stateless. You cannot have a communist economy where an elite class controls the means of production. That’s feudalism or state capitalism.
They literally do not have money in the compact. The work in the compact is done by the same people who control and own the means of production. Namely the Affini do most of the work and the Affini own most of the production. There are some xenosophonts who produce, and they control that production in some cases. I am not sure you have actually read much HDG at all.
Communism (from Latin communis ‘common, universal’)[1][2] is a political and economic ideology whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered on common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products in society based on need.[3][4][5] A communist society entails the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state.
The means of production are not owned by the community, they’re owned by the Affini
If an elite group controls it, it’s private, not public.
Affini are a privileged social class.
Affini are a state.
In 1950s America, men owned the means of production and did the productive work. Women (if married) were given free sustenance, but no control over the means of production, little right to work, and fundamentally no freedoms. It’s not communism if you have an underclass with no ownership of the means of production and no right to participate in the politics of the nation. Doesn’t matter if that underclass is women, black people, or all humanity, and doesn’t matter what kind of economics the ruling class practice between themselves.
The Affini are basically Israel. They steal all your planet’s land and natural resources, commit war crimes against anyone who rebels, and call themselves woke because it’s safe to be gay and white in Tel Aviv. Look at all the equality between the ruling race!
Independent xenosophonts do have political rights and means of production are collectively owned and managed. It’s only florets that don’t have political rights. In some cases florets have say over means of production as well, at least the ones that actually do any production as many don’t work at all. Affini can also be florets. Again I don’t think you have actually read that much HDG. You could argue that florets are an underclass. However most florets are also volunteers and have some very explicit rights in the story. In fact Affini are bound by those rights to look after florets more than they look after independents or each other. I really don’t think you can compare the Affini to Israel who are doing a genocide given the Affini avoid killing at all costs and respect local languages and even traditions provided they aren’t harmful.
Yes the Affini compact would not at all work in real life and anyone who tried it would end up committing some form of abuse. I am not trying to argue it’s realism here. You are however completely and seemingly deliberately ignoring what it actually is and how it’s described by the various authors.
I’m not talking about florets, I’m talking about everyone who isn’t Affini. No civilization is permitted to self-govern without Affini interference.
Once the Affini Compact becomes aware of a civilization, their domestication is inevitable. Generally speaking, while there are no civilizations more advanced than the Compact, even such precursor cultures would be unable to resist the Affini indefinitely
When a species accepts the Compact, they tend to have much more of a say in the running of their society afterward — but even these cultures will be altered by domestication, and the Compact will still be there with a firm hand on the wheel afterward, just in case. Species that resist domestication, like Terrans did, don’t get much of a say in how things are run — a species that fights back needs much more correction, from the Affini perspective, than one that willingly joins the Compact.
Basically, you’re free to self-govern as a vassal of the compact as long as you do what you’re told and don’t want independence. That’s not freedom. That’s not political rights. That’s abuse. Guess what, black slaves who did what their masters told them were treated better too, but that doesn’t mean they had freedom.
I have little experience with HDG, but I’m afraid you have little understanding of what communism and freedom mean, and that’s far more important. So far we have not disagreed on the facts of the fiction. We’ve only disagreed on the facts of political systems and ethics.
I do in fact believe the Affini are entirely benevolent. They are also wrong. They are monsters who mean well.
Yes they are an imperialist empire. I never said otherwise. What I was saying is they are not fascist nor are they capitalist. They aren’t necessarily feudalist either.
As for political rights: you have as much political freedom as you do in current “democracies”. Which is to say as an individual you can’t change much at all. Take the USA for example, individuals don’t choose the laws they live under, states can make some laws but are limited in their power and self-governence. If a state tried to leave they probably wouldn’t be allowed to and it would probably lead to civil war and them being recaptured. That’s basically what the Terran Protectorate is in the Affini compact. It’s a state in the larger compact with limited self-governance. Terrans can vote in larger elections in the larger Affini compact much like they can vote for things in the Terran protectorate. Arguably they are more free under the compact than they were in the Terran accord or current day society as the Affini compact does not have rich oligarchs who control everything. Means of production are owned by both Affini and independents.
Forcing other states to become their vassels is definitely an imperialist thing to do, but in this case it doesn’t really remove the rights of the individuals only the rights of governments. I think that’s an important thing to understand.
I would argue that the possibility of forced Domestication as well as all the psychic manipulation is the real serious issue with the compact in terms of freedom. The privileges afforded to only Affini such as the ability to take florets are another serious issue. You could very well call those things abuse. In terms of government and economics they are pretty free by comparison.
and interrogate why you want to be a fascist’s property
Because under capitalism not having one’s needs met is viewed as moral failure, we have little agency but are told that we do, and trans people are generally reviled. Thus, fantasies about having ones needs met, being stripped of agency in such a way that it is clearly not a failing on our own part and being able to express and be viewed as an object of desire without shame are attractive. Bodice-ripper type beat.
Those goals are perfectly achievable by writing Culture fanfiction. You can write about a communist society where everyone is completely free and has all the agency they want, where trans people are completely normal and people who get to their 200th birthday without at least trying a sex change are seen as primitive.
The fact that some people want to achieve those things with slavery and imperialism is deeper than that. And the fact they don’t want to talk about why they want it that way is sus.
Here is a fanfic that gives me the warm fuzzies. It’s about the best most communist space civ meeting the worst most fascist one. The power differential isn’t anywhere near close, but what gives the fic stakes is the Culture’s ethics. They do not under normal circumstances kill, indoctrinate, or enslave, unlike some people. Can the ultimate commies reform the ultimate fascists and fix their horrible galaxy? And can they do so without being corrupted?
Or maybe multiple works/bodies of work can exist and demanding everything meet some standard of ideological purity is a boring way of engaging with the world. I read the original because of the memes, it was kinda comforting in some ways, a little off putting in others, overall a worthwhile use of the time spent. It’s not any deeper than that to me.
Well I’m a communist and I don’t have a submission kink. I believe in collective ownership of the means of production. We should have a classless, moneyless, stateless society with a gift economy, where goods are organised from each according to ability, to each according to need.
Because appropriating imperialism and slavery as a white person to make yourself the slave (excuse me, I meant “floret”) is despicable and just a revival of the benevolent slave owner myth
Oh my g-d just let me fantasize about a universe where I don’t have to go to work in the morning and someone gives a fuck about my wellbeing and I don’t have to pay through the nose for gender affirming care in peace.
Why you gonna ask for all that, and then also add in an uncritical reproduction of the white settler benevolent slavery myth?
I kinda get it, because slavery is hot, but if you’re putting slavery in a story you’ve gotta examine it critically. You can’t have all of the fascist apologia and none of the left wing perspectives, otherwise you’re a fascist too. You gotta admit the affini are fascists and interrogate why you want to be a fascist’s property.
Are you sure? They definitely could be seen as an empire, but I don’t know about fascist. They economically speaking have communism in the compact. In fact they appropriate all the billionaires toys and redistribute as needed.
People I think are forgetting that slavery and fascism aren’t the same thing. Not even close. It’s also not the case that this is traditional slavery, they don’t take florets for economic reasons and most are volunteers.
Communism is stateless. You cannot have a communist economy where an elite class controls the means of production. That’s feudalism or state capitalism.
They literally do not have money in the compact. The work in the compact is done by the same people who control and own the means of production. Namely the Affini do most of the work and the Affini own most of the production. There are some xenosophonts who produce, and they control that production in some cases. I am not sure you have actually read much HDG at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Communism (from Latin communis ‘common, universal’)[1][2] is a political and economic ideology whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered on common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products in society based on need.[3][4][5] A communist society entails the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state.
The means of production are not owned by the community, they’re owned by the Affini
If an elite group controls it, it’s private, not public.
Affini are a privileged social class.
Affini are a state.
In 1950s America, men owned the means of production and did the productive work. Women (if married) were given free sustenance, but no control over the means of production, little right to work, and fundamentally no freedoms. It’s not communism if you have an underclass with no ownership of the means of production and no right to participate in the politics of the nation. Doesn’t matter if that underclass is women, black people, or all humanity, and doesn’t matter what kind of economics the ruling class practice between themselves.
The Affini are basically Israel. They steal all your planet’s land and natural resources, commit war crimes against anyone who rebels, and call themselves woke because it’s safe to be gay and white in Tel Aviv. Look at all the equality between the ruling race!
Independent xenosophonts do have political rights and means of production are collectively owned and managed. It’s only florets that don’t have political rights. In some cases florets have say over means of production as well, at least the ones that actually do any production as many don’t work at all. Affini can also be florets. Again I don’t think you have actually read that much HDG. You could argue that florets are an underclass. However most florets are also volunteers and have some very explicit rights in the story. In fact Affini are bound by those rights to look after florets more than they look after independents or each other. I really don’t think you can compare the Affini to Israel who are doing a genocide given the Affini avoid killing at all costs and respect local languages and even traditions provided they aren’t harmful.
Yes the Affini compact would not at all work in real life and anyone who tried it would end up committing some form of abuse. I am not trying to argue it’s realism here. You are however completely and seemingly deliberately ignoring what it actually is and how it’s described by the various authors.
I’m not talking about florets, I’m talking about everyone who isn’t Affini. No civilization is permitted to self-govern without Affini interference.
Basically, you’re free to self-govern as a vassal of the compact as long as you do what you’re told and don’t want independence. That’s not freedom. That’s not political rights. That’s abuse. Guess what, black slaves who did what their masters told them were treated better too, but that doesn’t mean they had freedom.
I have little experience with HDG, but I’m afraid you have little understanding of what communism and freedom mean, and that’s far more important. So far we have not disagreed on the facts of the fiction. We’ve only disagreed on the facts of political systems and ethics.
I do in fact believe the Affini are entirely benevolent. They are also wrong. They are monsters who mean well.
Yes they are an imperialist empire. I never said otherwise. What I was saying is they are not fascist nor are they capitalist. They aren’t necessarily feudalist either.
As for political rights: you have as much political freedom as you do in current “democracies”. Which is to say as an individual you can’t change much at all. Take the USA for example, individuals don’t choose the laws they live under, states can make some laws but are limited in their power and self-governence. If a state tried to leave they probably wouldn’t be allowed to and it would probably lead to civil war and them being recaptured. That’s basically what the Terran Protectorate is in the Affini compact. It’s a state in the larger compact with limited self-governance. Terrans can vote in larger elections in the larger Affini compact much like they can vote for things in the Terran protectorate. Arguably they are more free under the compact than they were in the Terran accord or current day society as the Affini compact does not have rich oligarchs who control everything. Means of production are owned by both Affini and independents.
Forcing other states to become their vassels is definitely an imperialist thing to do, but in this case it doesn’t really remove the rights of the individuals only the rights of governments. I think that’s an important thing to understand.
I would argue that the possibility of forced Domestication as well as all the psychic manipulation is the real serious issue with the compact in terms of freedom. The privileges afforded to only Affini such as the ability to take florets are another serious issue. You could very well call those things abuse. In terms of government and economics they are pretty free by comparison.
Because under capitalism not having one’s needs met is viewed as moral failure, we have little agency but are told that we do, and trans people are generally reviled. Thus, fantasies about having ones needs met, being stripped of agency in such a way that it is clearly not a failing on our own part and being able to express and be viewed as an object of desire without shame are attractive. Bodice-ripper type beat.
Those goals are perfectly achievable by writing Culture fanfiction. You can write about a communist society where everyone is completely free and has all the agency they want, where trans people are completely normal and people who get to their 200th birthday without at least trying a sex change are seen as primitive.
The fact that some people want to achieve those things with slavery and imperialism is deeper than that. And the fact they don’t want to talk about why they want it that way is sus.
Is there much culture fan fiction? Now I am intrigued.
Here is a fanfic that gives me the warm fuzzies. It’s about the best most communist space civ meeting the worst most fascist one. The power differential isn’t anywhere near close, but what gives the fic stakes is the Culture’s ethics. They do not under normal circumstances kill, indoctrinate, or enslave, unlike some people. Can the ultimate commies reform the ultimate fascists and fix their horrible galaxy? And can they do so without being corrupted?
https://archiveofourown.org/works/649448?view_full_work=true
Or maybe multiple works/bodies of work can exist and demanding everything meet some standard of ideological purity is a boring way of engaging with the world. I read the original because of the memes, it was kinda comforting in some ways, a little off putting in others, overall a worthwhile use of the time spent. It’s not any deeper than that to me.
Further evidence to support that communists are just fascists with a submission kink
Well I’m a communist and I don’t have a submission kink. I believe in collective ownership of the means of production. We should have a classless, moneyless, stateless society with a gift economy, where goods are organised from each according to ability, to each according to need.
Eh its a stereotype joke anyways lol
Because appropriating imperialism and slavery as a white person to make yourself the slave (excuse me, I meant “floret”) is despicable and just a revival of the benevolent slave owner myth
Wrong.