I love the 4th point “A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.”
A dialogue between Russia and the USA and its friends will happen, and the US will be the fair and impartial mediator. They could have selected like Switzerland or The UN and pretended to have a nutral 3rd party
The art of the completely unworkable deal. Completely strip Ukraine of everything other than its military, which is exactly one of Russia’s strongest red lines, while also effectively adding Ukraine to NATO (security guarantee) with obvious loopholes in the invalidation of this guarantee (just shoot missiles at somewhere which is not Moscow or St Petersburg).
Since Russia is now finally seizing the entirety of Pokrovsk and continuing their slow push, while getting more practical battle experience, with no signs of economic or political crisis, I think it’s safe to say they’ll be able to continue saying “no” until all of their demands are met.
In a sense, I think stopping the war is more urgent for the US than anything, so they can access the Russian markets again before their incoming stock crash.
My read on the whole thing is that Kellogg, Europeans, and Ukrainians convinced Trump that everything was going great after Alaska talks. So, Trump backed out of the peace settlement he himself proposed based on that. Now that everybody can see the front is collapsing, Trump is scrambling to cobble together some semblance of a deal.
I think it’s safe to say they’ll be able to continue saying “no” until all of their demands are met.
Putin has agreed to the draft proposal, I think it will be unworkable for Ukraine but in the event they dont sign they will lose the entire country, nevermind just the east.
Oh I’m sure. That’ exactly why the side covered with swastikas head to toe is the one proposing it.
6, 13.1, 14.1 are particularly sus. Especially 6. I don’t care about euros’ made up fears, they shouldn’t have a 600k force on the Russian border that’s both disposable to them and that they train and supply all the time.
Russia and us would team up on mining and ai? I get mining but why ai?
Gotta team up with someone who isn’t China on AI and using Russia against China kinda the same way Ukraine is being used against Russia has been the western dream scenario this century. No Idea why Russia would at this point, but then again I have very little faith in the Kremlin libs.
Anyway, I was pointing to the second subsection there first of all.
I struggle to think how they would maintain a 600k strong army when they dont even seem to have half of that as an effective fighting force at the moment.
They are also at war at the moment. It’s a big country and it’s doable given long enough peace. Also I don’t know where you are getting your numbers and why you trust them. I’ve seen estimates up to a million and none that I would trust.
They have experience too. A whole generation of brainwashed youth was raised between 2014 and 2022. This just smacks of Minsk agreements 2.0: get a breather, prepare new forces, try again. Fuck that. Putin declared demilitarization of Ukraine as one of the goals of SMO in the very beginning and he better stand on at least that and denazification.
P. S. Speaking of, it’s hilarious that a country that refuses to condemn nazi ideology in the UN proposes that Russia and Ukraine ban it.
They are also at war at the moment. It’s a big country and it’s doable given long enough peace. Also I don’t know where you are getting your numbers and why you trust them. I’ve seen estimates up to a million and none that I would trust.
Im pulling them out of my ass, its mostly based on the mass desertion + bussification the Ukraine military is having to resort too, i’ve read accounts of drafted infantryman that on paper they are deployed to the frontline with units that should have 9, 10 men and finding only 1-2 men who have been on the line without rotation for months. A recent medal ceremony (that Russia bombed and killed everyone) gave a medal to a soldier who had been on the front line without rotation for 2 entire years.
I believe mostly just off vibes and following lots of accounts on both sides that the Ukraine manpower shortage is at critical levels, which is why the peace plans are being pushed so hard right now, there is literally no more substance left and these are the last lines before the entire front collapses and experiences exceptional losses.
Of course USA is the guaranteed winner, here. Everything else is sus af.
This is a fucking loss for Ukraine holy shit, the only thing here is Ukraine gets “security guarantees” (but no clue what that looks like) and gets to join the EU tbh I honestly thought that once the war is over no one wanted to invest money into rebuilding Ukraine looks like I was wrong
Rebuilding a destroyed country is a great way to make a lot of money for capitalists. You have a very poor and desperate workforce, can buy property at super low prices and in a couple years the valuation of all capital there will jump back up. Look at post war Federal Germany.
It seems that the US is actually accepting Russian terms here. This is basically what Putin laid out in 2024 as Istanbul plus.
Yes and no NATO creep was promised before, although under someone different. Did Putin propose the financial arrangement, where sanctioned money and 50% profit sharing deal is agreeable? I’m sorry to have to ask, it’s late, I’m tired and a lot is happening. I can’t remember it all.
This is 100% an American proposal. The Russians will look at it and if there is something they don’t like they will propose corrections. I suspect that the notion of agreeing to having their foreign reserves stolen to pay for Ukraine is a non-starter. As is not getting all four annexed oblasts which are now part of the Russian constitution in their entirety.
The rest, as Yog said, is fairly close to what the Russians were demanding: a kind of “Istanbul plus”. The thing is though, that already most of this proposal is completely unacceptable to the Kiev regime and its European backers, who will probably reject it and insist on continuing the war. That in turn allows the US to walk away and leave Europe holding the bag, and Russia to impose its demands by military means, which the Russians are already prepared for, and will result in even harsher terms (just like the current terms are much harsher than those offered by Russia in Istanbul 2022, which in turn were much worse than the Minsk agreements - notice the pattern?) than what Ukraine could be getting now while they still have an army that is on the brink but not yet collapsed.
The reason why I am fairly confident that this will be rejected by the Kiev junta is because it is so humiliating and such a total defeat of the whole Maidan/Banderite nationalist and pro-West project that it would lead to the overthrow of the regime. What would happen in the long run if all conditions are met is that Ukraine would drift slowly but surely back into Russia’s orbit.
I very much agree, I just can’t see how either Ukraine or Europe could ever swallow this deal. There’s simply no way to spin it as some kind of a win, and that makes it politically impossible. They’d have to own up to their own people that last three and a half years were all for nothing, and that it would’ve been far more rational to have taken the Istanbul deal at the very start of the war. The problem of course is that it can only get worse from here on out, so they may be able to delay the outcome by a few months, but after that they’ll be right back where they are now, except the US will have walked away by then.
I suspect that the notion of agreeing to having their foreign reserves stolen to pay for Ukraine is a non-starter.
Yes, it definitely put me on defense, and I was super-tired and I don’t even live there.
As is not getting all four annexed oblasts which are now part of the Russian constitution in their entirety.
Also understandable.
The thing is though, that already most of this proposal is completely unacceptable to the Kiev regime and its European backers, who will probably reject it and insist on continuing the war.
NGL, I actually agreed with Trump saying “you’re so negative! This is a good deal, you should take it (or something similar)!”
That in turn allows the US to walk away and leave Europe holding the bag, and Russia to impose its demands by military means, which the Russians are already prepared for, and will result in even harsher terms
Yep.
(just like the current terms are much harsher than those offered by Russia in Istanbul 2022, which in turn were much worse than the Minsk agreements - notice the pattern?) than what Ukraine could be getting now while they still have an army that is on the brink but not yet collapsed.
"Double or nothing! Triple or nothing! Quadruple or nothing!” My noticing that pattern isn’t the question; I wonder if EU will decide that game is still worth it when USA walks? Kyiv can reject it all they want, but without someone else funding the war machine, I don’t think they can play. As far as Europe is concerned, there’s a hard and fast gambling rule all but fools don’t observe: don’t play on scared money. So I guess we will see.
Thanks for your reply. Our thoughts are aligned, but sometimes I want a reality check, because I’m still learning.
I actually agreed with Trump saying “you’re so negative! This is a good deal, you should take it (or something similar)!”
And he is right. This is still a very good deal for Ukraine. With the way things are going on the battlefield right now this would be a major win for Ukraine if the Russians would accept these terms as written.
But instead of recognizing that reality what we’re hearing right now from Kiev and European capitals is that this is totally unacceptable and just a capitulation to Putin and that giving up anything at all to the Russians is a red line. They really live in their own delusional world, and that won’t change until the US pulls the rug out from under them.
When exactly that will happen is hard to predict because Trump is so erratic and completely changes his mind from one day to the next based on personal whims. But for Russia it doesn’t really matter because the current trajectory is entirely in their favor. They have time on their side and the longer this drags the worse Ukraine’s battlefield position gets, and this is currently happening at an accelerated, unprecedented pace.
I’m not going to go into all of that right now and i will put off posting about what is happening on the battlefield until the situation stops changing so rapidly that it is hard to even keep up with, but if i was Ukrainian i would have only one word to describe it, and that’s: catastrophic.
I think the Europeans are still deep in denial about it, but US military and intelligence understand this and this is why the Trump administration are starting to put serious pressure on Zelensky to get a deal done asap before things get much much worse, which could easily happen in a matter of months.
They really live in their own delusional world
When exactly that will happen is hard to predict because Trump is so erratic and completely changes his mind from one day to the next based on personal whims.
It depends on if he listens to Miller, who is almost certainly completely delusional (but also extremely cunning and instinctively good at manipulation) or someone more able to distance their logic from their own emotional triggers.
But for Russia it doesn’t really matter because the current trajectory is entirely in their favor. They have time on their side and the longer this drags the worse Ukraine’s battlefield position gets, and this is currently happening at an accelerated, unprecedented pace.
Absolutely, and I suspect their finances must be in decent enough shape to play the long game without access to their own money the EU is trying to sort how to slap a sheen of legality on the confiscation of it.
I’m not going to go into all of that right now and i will put off posting about what is happening on the battlefield until the situation stops changing so rapidly that it is hard to even keep up with, but if i was Ukrainian i would have only one word to describe it, and that’s: catastrophic.
Yes; someone mentioned some months ago it’s almost enough to conjure sympathy for Zelinsky…not quite though. He was between a rock and hard place and decided to go all in with the Nazis. His head was always on the chopping block, though, he could have chosen to sacrifice himself fighting the good fight and didn’t. And I get it. Odds may have seemed a little different, at the moment of decision.
Anyway, it is too early to predict specifics, and I appreciate honest acknowledgement much more than bs. Thank you for that.
I suspect their finances must be in decent enough shape to play the long game without access to their own money the EU is trying to sort how to slap a sheen of legality on the confiscation of it.
I think that’s pretty much a given. I mean they’ve been able to function just fine for three years now without those funds. The reason why I say that Russia is very unlikely to give consent to its frozen reserves being used for Ukraine even in a peace deal that would otherwise be very favorable to Russia is not because they desperately need those funds but because the frozen reserves are a massive poison pill for the Western financial system.
The way i see it Russia is using that money as bait, as a trap essentially almost daring the Europeans to seize it because that will lead to trust in their entire financial system imploding if they cross that line. This however relies on Russia continuing to insist on its lawful ownership of the frozen reserves. I think however that Russia would secretly be quite happy if the Europeans were to make the enormous strategic blunder of pulling the trigger on that theft.
And the smarter Europeans understand this. Problem is that Europe is led by a bunch of fanatics right now who might just be desperate and stupid enough to do it against the advice of their own financial and legal experts.
Russia hasn’t agreed to anything so far. This is just what the US is floating as their initial position, and it’s already not far from what Russia demanded. The point with NATO creep is that it will now be enforced by Russia. These are the conditions, if NATO breaks them then the war restarts. We’ll see if Russia decides that the profit sharing deal is acceptable to them or not.
Ok I see, thanks so much. I should have been asleep a few hours ago, lol. Tomorrow is going to be fun…
lol I’ve been making this same mistake all week
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