What? That’s nonsense. They have control because people didn’t do the smart thing. If enough people do the smart thing, the bad thing wouldn’t have happened.
Your logic is equivalent to:
Chain-smoke and you might get cancer. Don’t chain-smoke and you might get cancer anyway, so might as well chain-smoke. It’s nonsense.
Blame the people in power always. Your enemies have control because of the failings of Democrat leadership. We blame the people with the most power in everything, why not politics?
With that point aside and dealing with your smoking anology. Here’s what my logic actually means.
Stay smoking and you will be miserable. Quit smoking and you might still be miserable. Quit or no?
You know:
Do the good thing and a bad thing might happen. Don’t do the good thing and the bad thing will happen anyways.
Might as well do the good thing.
Unless you think chain smoking or cancer are good things, if not you can’t parse that quote with your smoking analogy and make it make sense:
Do the good thing [chain smoking] and the bad thing will happen [get cancer]. Don’t do the good thing [chain smoking] and the bad thing [get cancer] will happen anyways. Might as well do the good thing [chain smoking]. You see how you have a fundamental misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of the argument?
You’re getting distracted. I’m not saying smoking is a good thing (not that I think what you’re calling a “good thing” actually is good anyway). I’m demonstrating your logical misstep.
The same logic your argument is based on (If you vote Democrat, a Republican might win anyway, so you might as well throw your vote away on a third party) justifies my ridiculous argument (If you don’t smoke, you might get cancer anyway, so you might as well smoke).
I reject your suggestion that throwing your vote away is a “good thing”. It’s a stupid thing that temporarily makes you feel good, like smoking.
If you vote Democrat [bad thing, genocide is bad no?], a Republican might win [bad thing] anyway, so you might as well throw your vote away on a third party [bad thing]
You see how you have once again either misinterpreted or misrepresented the argument? 2nd time now, how many before we can assume deliberate misrepresentation?
Smoking was a good analogy, why run from it? Voting democrat [chain smoking] is the devil a lot of people know, and it sure as hell beats voting republican [heroin]. No argument from me: chain smoking > heroin.
But… you could quit smoking and not do heroin either.
But… you could quit smoking and not do heroin either.
Which is probably where you’re getting confused.
Republicans are cancer.
Voting Democrat is like not smoking.
Voting third party is like smoking.
The probability of getting cancer anyway does not mean that increasing your probability of getting cancer by smoking is smart, it is much better to not smoke. Maybe you still get cancer anyway, but at least you’ve improved your odds.
The probability of getting a Republican anyway does not mean that increasing your probability of getting a Republican by voting third party is smart, it is much better to vote Democrat. Maybe you still get a Republican anyway, but at least you’ve improved your odds.
Voting third party is not good or virtuous. It is counterproductive and contributes to the greater harm.
You’re right, here is where the disconnect is. Seems strange to blame it on me being confused, can you not accept I’m a rational person in any way? Because I don’t 100% agree I have to be “confused”?
Anyways, we can drill down to just here. Is genocide bad? To those that think “genocide=bad” voting democrat cannot be a good thing, which is why you struggled so much fitting it into my argument right? You can think it’s a necessary thing, but it can’t be a good thing.
So, empathy time:
Can you accept that it’s a rational thing to assert: “genocide=bad”?
You can disagree that it is “bad enough”, damage limitation is also a rational argument right? At least I accept damage limitation to be a valid POV. I don’t think we can move on until you accept “genocide=bad” is a rational POV, not born of confusion.
Once we have “genocide=bad” it’s easy to get to “republicans=heroin”, “democrats=chain smoking” and you now have a few years to quit.
Because I don’t 100% agree I have to be “confused”?
No, you’re confused because your logic is bad. Logic isn’t something you can disagree with. You can disagree on the axioms you apply logic to, but you can’t disagree with the logic itself.
Can you accept that it’s a rational thing to assert: “genocide=bad”?
Yes, obviously. However, voting for someone who opposes genocide, but stands no chance of winning is not good; it does nothing to curtail the genocide.
No matter who you vote for, the result will be Democrat or Republican for the foreseeable future. If you actually care about the genocide, it’s better to choose which of those two is less bad. Additionally there are other issues, so even if the two are identical on genocide, there’s still a rational choice.
Voting third party does not help obstruct genocide in any way. I compared it to smoking because it feels good, it scratches an itch, but long term it’s bad.
No, you’re confused because your logic is bad. Logic isn’t something you can disagree with. You can disagree on the axioms you apply logic to, but you can’t disagree with the logic itself.
Ok
Axiom 1. doing a good thing (not supporting a genocide party) might get a bad result (republican power)
Axiom 2. Not doing the good thing (supporting a genocide party, genocide=bad we agree, bad!=good) will get a bad result anyway (republican power)
Therefore, you might as well do the good thing. You might get a good result, not doing so will get the bad result.
You haven’t proven the logic bad. You haven’t proven an axiom incorrect. You have misrepresented the position a couple times as I’ve demonstrated to you. This is a third time, I’m going with “misrepresented”. How many times until deliberate misrepresentation. How many until malicious misrepresentation?
I am not confused, your trying to portray me as such is a bad faith attempt to dismiss me. If I’m confused then you don’t have to think about what I’m saying. It would be like dismissing you as “genocide supporter” right? It doesn’t promote good conversation.
Voting democrat isn’t a good thing, we agree. You think it’s the necessary thing, I acknowledged that in my previous comment, thanks for ignoring it. Explaining why you think it’s the necessary thing doesn’t make me think you believe it’s the necessary thing even more. Explaining why you think it’s the necessary thing doesn’t prove it’s the good thing. (Genocide=bad, bad!=good) Therefore explaining why you think it’s the necessary thing doesn’t show my position to be illogical and was a waste of time. We both agree, you think it’s the necessary thing and I think that’s a valid POV. There’s no argument to be found here.
Voting third party does not help obstruct genocide in any way. I compared it to smoking because it feels good, it scratches an itch, but long term it’s bad.
Right, “feels good, scratches an itch but long term it’s bad” that’s supporting democrats. Damage limitation is short term feel good, but long term loss, gestures at the current state of things. Instead of damage limitation you have a few years to quit smoking, as it were, and build something better.
Or, you can do what you’ve always done (vote Democrat) and hope you don’t get more of what you’ve always got (relentless march to fascism)
Axiom 2. Not doing the good thing (supporting a genocide party, genocide=bad we agree) will get a bad result anyway (republican power)
Yes, that’s a bad axiom. It is demonstrably untrue. It may get the worse of the two possible outcomes (Republican power) or it may get the less bad of two possible outcomes (Democrat power). It is false to say that voting will get the worse result.
Doesn’t matter what logic you apply to those axioms, garbage in garbage out.
Therefore, you might as well do the good thing. You might get a good result, not doing so will get the bad result.
How does voting for a candidate with no chance of winning yield a good result?
Good intentions with bad outcomes does not make a good thing. Wasting your vote is a bad thing. You keep calling it good, it is not.
Damage limitation is short term feel good, but long term loss, gestures at the current state of things. Instead of damage limitation you have a few years to quit smoking, as it were, and build something better.
Long term it is still the better of two possible outcomes. “Quitting” is going to require social action. Individual electoral action will not make anything better. The smoker in this analogy is the nation as a whole, doing the good thing would be changing the outlooks of half the country. Voting third party does not accomplish that. It makes you feel good for opposing genocide, while enabling that genocide to get worse. Bad thing.
What? That’s nonsense. They have control because people didn’t do the smart thing. If enough people do the smart thing, the bad thing wouldn’t have happened.
Your logic is equivalent to:
Chain-smoke and you might get cancer. Don’t chain-smoke and you might get cancer anyway, so might as well chain-smoke. It’s nonsense.
Blame the people in power always. Your enemies have control because of the failings of Democrat leadership. We blame the people with the most power in everything, why not politics?
With that point aside and dealing with your smoking anology. Here’s what my logic actually means.
Stay smoking and you will be miserable. Quit smoking and you might still be miserable. Quit or no?
You know:
Unless you think chain smoking or cancer are good things, if not you can’t parse that quote with your smoking analogy and make it make sense:
Do the good thing [chain smoking] and the bad thing will happen [get cancer]. Don’t do the good thing [chain smoking] and the bad thing [get cancer] will happen anyways. Might as well do the good thing [chain smoking]. You see how you have a fundamental misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of the argument?
You’re getting distracted. I’m not saying smoking is a good thing (not that I think what you’re calling a “good thing” actually is good anyway). I’m demonstrating your logical misstep.
The same logic your argument is based on (If you vote Democrat, a Republican might win anyway, so you might as well throw your vote away on a third party) justifies my ridiculous argument (If you don’t smoke, you might get cancer anyway, so you might as well smoke).
I reject your suggestion that throwing your vote away is a “good thing”. It’s a stupid thing that temporarily makes you feel good, like smoking.
You see how you have once again either misinterpreted or misrepresented the argument? 2nd time now, how many before we can assume deliberate misrepresentation?
Smoking was a good analogy, why run from it? Voting democrat [chain smoking] is the devil a lot of people know, and it sure as hell beats voting republican [heroin]. No argument from me: chain smoking > heroin.
But… you could quit smoking and not do heroin either.
Which is probably where you’re getting confused.
Republicans are cancer.
Voting Democrat is like not smoking.
Voting third party is like smoking.
The probability of getting cancer anyway does not mean that increasing your probability of getting cancer by smoking is smart, it is much better to not smoke. Maybe you still get cancer anyway, but at least you’ve improved your odds.
The probability of getting a Republican anyway does not mean that increasing your probability of getting a Republican by voting third party is smart, it is much better to vote Democrat. Maybe you still get a Republican anyway, but at least you’ve improved your odds.
Voting third party is not good or virtuous. It is counterproductive and contributes to the greater harm.
[…]
You’re right, here is where the disconnect is. Seems strange to blame it on me being confused, can you not accept I’m a rational person in any way? Because I don’t 100% agree I have to be “confused”?
Anyways, we can drill down to just here. Is genocide bad? To those that think “genocide=bad” voting democrat cannot be a good thing, which is why you struggled so much fitting it into my argument right? You can think it’s a necessary thing, but it can’t be a good thing.
So, empathy time:
Can you accept that it’s a rational thing to assert: “genocide=bad”?
You can disagree that it is “bad enough”, damage limitation is also a rational argument right? At least I accept damage limitation to be a valid POV. I don’t think we can move on until you accept “genocide=bad” is a rational POV, not born of confusion.
Once we have “genocide=bad” it’s easy to get to “republicans=heroin”, “democrats=chain smoking” and you now have a few years to quit.
No, you’re confused because your logic is bad. Logic isn’t something you can disagree with. You can disagree on the axioms you apply logic to, but you can’t disagree with the logic itself.
Yes, obviously. However, voting for someone who opposes genocide, but stands no chance of winning is not good; it does nothing to curtail the genocide.
No matter who you vote for, the result will be Democrat or Republican for the foreseeable future. If you actually care about the genocide, it’s better to choose which of those two is less bad. Additionally there are other issues, so even if the two are identical on genocide, there’s still a rational choice.
Voting third party does not help obstruct genocide in any way. I compared it to smoking because it feels good, it scratches an itch, but long term it’s bad.
Ok
Axiom 1. doing a good thing (not supporting a genocide party) might get a bad result (republican power)
Axiom 2. Not doing the good thing (supporting a genocide party, genocide=bad we agree, bad!=good) will get a bad result anyway (republican power)
Therefore, you might as well do the good thing. You might get a good result, not doing so will get the bad result.
You haven’t proven the logic bad. You haven’t proven an axiom incorrect. You have misrepresented the position a couple times as I’ve demonstrated to you. This is a third time, I’m going with “misrepresented”. How many times until deliberate misrepresentation. How many until malicious misrepresentation?
I am not confused, your trying to portray me as such is a bad faith attempt to dismiss me. If I’m confused then you don’t have to think about what I’m saying. It would be like dismissing you as “genocide supporter” right? It doesn’t promote good conversation.
Voting democrat isn’t a good thing, we agree. You think it’s the necessary thing, I acknowledged that in my previous comment, thanks for ignoring it. Explaining why you think it’s the necessary thing doesn’t make me think you believe it’s the necessary thing even more. Explaining why you think it’s the necessary thing doesn’t prove it’s the good thing. (Genocide=bad, bad!=good) Therefore explaining why you think it’s the necessary thing doesn’t show my position to be illogical and was a waste of time. We both agree, you think it’s the necessary thing and I think that’s a valid POV. There’s no argument to be found here.
Right, “feels good, scratches an itch but long term it’s bad” that’s supporting democrats. Damage limitation is short term feel good, but long term loss, gestures at the current state of things. Instead of damage limitation you have a few years to quit smoking, as it were, and build something better.
Or, you can do what you’ve always done (vote Democrat) and hope you don’t get more of what you’ve always got (relentless march to fascism)
Yes, that’s a bad axiom. It is demonstrably untrue. It may get the worse of the two possible outcomes (Republican power) or it may get the less bad of two possible outcomes (Democrat power). It is false to say that voting will get the worse result.
Doesn’t matter what logic you apply to those axioms, garbage in garbage out.
How does voting for a candidate with no chance of winning yield a good result?
Good intentions with bad outcomes does not make a good thing. Wasting your vote is a bad thing. You keep calling it good, it is not.
Long term it is still the better of two possible outcomes. “Quitting” is going to require social action. Individual electoral action will not make anything better. The smoker in this analogy is the nation as a whole, doing the good thing would be changing the outlooks of half the country. Voting third party does not accomplish that. It makes you feel good for opposing genocide, while enabling that genocide to get worse. Bad thing.
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