Edit: I want to preface this comment by saying that you don’t seem to be conflating zionism and Jewish ethnicity/culture. My reply is more of a general comment on how people can sometimes mix these up, partially because within Israel (and especially from the perspective of a Palestinian), they have close to 100% overlap, and how it’s a grave mistake to extrapolate that outside Israel where Jewish cultures exist that long predate the existence of Israel.
No one wants to name the actual problem.
Long reponse.
The actual problem is zionists. In Israel, due to the power structures in place, that’s almost all Jews. Outside of Israel, you don’t gain anything from tying Jews to Zionism rhetorically, that’s what the zionists want. If you dig deeper into the polling, you’ll see large differences by age group and financial situation among Jewish people.
I think that if someone brings up concerns of “antisemitism” in response to pro-Palestine discourse, then they should be dismissed. It’s just not the case that there is any actual significant amount of antisemitism in the mainstream international pro-Palestine movement, and there literally cannot be antisemitism in Palestine, it isn’t possible with the power structures at play (it’s like talking about anti-white racism in America).
However, mixing the Israelis with the Jewish diaspora into one category is not only incorrect, it’s an incredible own-goal that concedes to Zionists almost the entire basis for their psychotic ideology.
For some reason people on the left are ready to give Jews (not all of them) a pass for being genocide supporters simply because they’re Jewish.
Liberals do this. I doubt you could find a significant percentage of actual communists who believe this.
The same cannot be said of their attitude towards other genocide supporters who are of a different race.
Liberals do this as well, sometimes, but it would also be wrong to say that e.g. Turks are inherently genocidal. Partly because it’s just reactionary, and partly because it helps absolve the people who support genocide of their choice to do so. Non-zionists and anti-zionist jews exist in large numbers, and they show that the central argument of zionism is a lie. They live well outside of Israel and feel no need to commit genocide to have “their own state”.
If you dig deeper into the polling, you’ll see large differences by age group and financial situation among Jewish people.
When it’s 98% of the Jewish population of the entity, I think we can safely say that it’s gonna look the same across stratifications. You don’t get differences in demographics when the overall is 98%.
Liberals do this
This is just no true Scotsman fallacy; yes there are absolutely communists that do this. Anyway my comment wasn’t just referring to communists alone, it was referring to everyone against the genocide.
Non-zionists and anti-zionist jews exist in large numbers
I’m not doubting this, I’m just saying that people really need to point out that Jews supporting genocide is a massive problem within the Jewish community. I think I’m being generous when I say that for every non-zionist/antizionist jew there is a genocide supporting/Zionist jew. That’s not something I see addressed the way it needs to be, and the excessive coddling is absurd. Especially when other groups have been questioned significantly more for significantly less.
When it’s 98% of the Jewish population of the entity, I think we can safely say that it’s gonna look the same across stratifications. You don’t get differences in demographics when the overall is 98%.
I’m talking about the diaspora, not the entity. This is what I mean, the assumption that “Jewish” meant “Israeli” despite the previous sentence starting with “Outside of Israel”. Mixing these two up is validating the core belief of zionists that they are the rightful representatives of all Jews.
This is just no true Scotsman fallacy; yes there are absolutely communists that do this. Anyway my comment wasn’t just referring to communists alone, it was referring to everyone against the genocide.
An incredibly small fringe of communists believe this. I could find a communist that believes almost anything, that doesn’t make it significant. That’s also going to be largely true of any actual leftist (people who oppose capitalism, once you expand to social democrats or left-liberals it paints a very different picture). It’s actually impossible to support zionism and oppose capitalism meaningfully, it inevitably leads to class-collaborationism.
I’m not doubting this, I’m just saying that people really need to point out that Jews supporting genocide is a massive problem within the Jewish community.
Anti-zionist Jews would agree with you, and so do I. It’s something that should be discussed with due care, though. An important part of that discussion if the fact that Jewish is not Israeli, because that fact makes it possible for anti-zionist Jews to exist.
Especially when other groups have been questioned significantly more for significantly less.
This is the case, but I think that those discussions often (almost always, actually) were driven by or turned into simple racism. I wouldn’t assume when talking to a Jewish person in the diaspora that they supported Israel unless I saw something that made me think so - especially if they’re younger where it’s less likely statistically. I wouldn’t assume when talking to a (e.g.) Turk that they support the Armenian genocide because that would be obviously racist and serve no purpose. The people who do support these things make themselves incredibly obvious very quickly, it’s easy to tell without having to guess.
I’m talking about the diaspora, not the entity. This is what I mean, the assumption that “Jewish” meant “Israeli” despite the previous sentence starting with “Outside of Israel”.
I apologize for not reading your comment properly. I was under the impression that we were still talking about the settlers.
I agree with you, stratification of demographics within the Jewish community (outside of the entity) would absolutely reveal patterns related to class and, especially, age.
The people who do support these things make themselves incredibly obvious very quickly, it’s easy to tell without having to guess.
There are a lot of good, polite, and well mannered people that support genocide. It’s like saying every maga dumbass is frothing at the mouth white trash that collects welfare and huffs paint. A good portion of maga look like decent people until you find out more about them.
I didn’t make myself clear in my previous comment. I wasn’t trying to conflate the entity with Jews/Judaism in general.
There are a lot of good, polite, and well mannered people that support genocide.
Extremely true and a good point, I just think that the reality visible to everyone is now so grotesque that even the most “liberal” zionists can’t help telling on themselves. Anyone who isn’t a zionist is now disgusted by “Israel”, and those who aren’t and believe they’re not zionists are just lying to themselves. As you say, they look like decent people, I just don’t think that mask holds up for anyone. Maybe I’m too optimistic, though.
I think we generally agree with each other here, thanks for the conversation.
Edit: I want to preface this comment by saying that you don’t seem to be conflating zionism and Jewish ethnicity/culture. My reply is more of a general comment on how people can sometimes mix these up, partially because within Israel (and especially from the perspective of a Palestinian), they have close to 100% overlap, and how it’s a grave mistake to extrapolate that outside Israel where Jewish cultures exist that long predate the existence of Israel.
Long reponse.
The actual problem is zionists. In Israel, due to the power structures in place, that’s almost all Jews. Outside of Israel, you don’t gain anything from tying Jews to Zionism rhetorically, that’s what the zionists want. If you dig deeper into the polling, you’ll see large differences by age group and financial situation among Jewish people.
I think that if someone brings up concerns of “antisemitism” in response to pro-Palestine discourse, then they should be dismissed. It’s just not the case that there is any actual significant amount of antisemitism in the mainstream international pro-Palestine movement, and there literally cannot be antisemitism in Palestine, it isn’t possible with the power structures at play (it’s like talking about anti-white racism in America).
However, mixing the Israelis with the Jewish diaspora into one category is not only incorrect, it’s an incredible own-goal that concedes to Zionists almost the entire basis for their psychotic ideology.
Liberals do this. I doubt you could find a significant percentage of actual communists who believe this.
Liberals do this as well, sometimes, but it would also be wrong to say that e.g. Turks are inherently genocidal. Partly because it’s just reactionary, and partly because it helps absolve the people who support genocide of their choice to do so. Non-zionists and anti-zionist jews exist in large numbers, and they show that the central argument of zionism is a lie. They live well outside of Israel and feel no need to commit genocide to have “their own state”.
When it’s 98% of the Jewish population of the entity, I think we can safely say that it’s gonna look the same across stratifications. You don’t get differences in demographics when the overall is 98%.
This is just no true Scotsman fallacy; yes there are absolutely communists that do this. Anyway my comment wasn’t just referring to communists alone, it was referring to everyone against the genocide.
I’m not doubting this, I’m just saying that people really need to point out that Jews supporting genocide is a massive problem within the Jewish community. I think I’m being generous when I say that for every non-zionist/antizionist jew there is a genocide supporting/Zionist jew. That’s not something I see addressed the way it needs to be, and the excessive coddling is absurd. Especially when other groups have been questioned significantly more for significantly less.
I’m talking about the diaspora, not the entity. This is what I mean, the assumption that “Jewish” meant “Israeli” despite the previous sentence starting with “Outside of Israel”. Mixing these two up is validating the core belief of zionists that they are the rightful representatives of all Jews.
An incredibly small fringe of communists believe this. I could find a communist that believes almost anything, that doesn’t make it significant. That’s also going to be largely true of any actual leftist (people who oppose capitalism, once you expand to social democrats or left-liberals it paints a very different picture). It’s actually impossible to support zionism and oppose capitalism meaningfully, it inevitably leads to class-collaborationism.
Anti-zionist Jews would agree with you, and so do I. It’s something that should be discussed with due care, though. An important part of that discussion if the fact that Jewish is not Israeli, because that fact makes it possible for anti-zionist Jews to exist.
This is the case, but I think that those discussions often (almost always, actually) were driven by or turned into simple racism. I wouldn’t assume when talking to a Jewish person in the diaspora that they supported Israel unless I saw something that made me think so - especially if they’re younger where it’s less likely statistically. I wouldn’t assume when talking to a (e.g.) Turk that they support the Armenian genocide because that would be obviously racist and serve no purpose. The people who do support these things make themselves incredibly obvious very quickly, it’s easy to tell without having to guess.
I apologize for not reading your comment properly. I was under the impression that we were still talking about the settlers.
I agree with you, stratification of demographics within the Jewish community (outside of the entity) would absolutely reveal patterns related to class and, especially, age.
There are a lot of good, polite, and well mannered people that support genocide. It’s like saying every maga dumbass is frothing at the mouth white trash that collects welfare and huffs paint. A good portion of maga look like decent people until you find out more about them.
I didn’t make myself clear in my previous comment. I wasn’t trying to conflate the entity with Jews/Judaism in general.
Extremely true and a good point, I just think that the reality visible to everyone is now so grotesque that even the most “liberal” zionists can’t help telling on themselves. Anyone who isn’t a zionist is now disgusted by “Israel”, and those who aren’t and believe they’re not zionists are just lying to themselves. As you say, they look like decent people, I just don’t think that mask holds up for anyone. Maybe I’m too optimistic, though.
I think we generally agree with each other here, thanks for the conversation.
Yeah, thank you for the discussion. I’ll read more closely next time