This is why whenever someone spits “liberal” out in a discussion, it just freezes my brain for a little while as I try to figure out what the fuck they mean by the word.
It’s a classic example of “you keep saying that word, it doesn’t mean what you think it means”
It comes off so elitist when people like you and OP act this way though. Most people don’t like politics or even want to get involved. A majority of those ones that do get involved have such a baseline understanding of what their political affiliation is it’s shocking. Hell, for most of my life I didn’t know better either. I always considered myself a liberal Democrat, but better realized that I’m fully a progressive.
It’s better to be open and supportive of people, and to talk to them about their beliefs. It goes a lot better than ridiculing then over it. You catch a lot more flies with honey, than with vinegar.
The ideological landscape could not be more topsy turvy if someone was deliberately trying to make sane conversations impossible. There needs to be some kind of grounding shibboleth that can erase all ambiguity.
You don’t think someone is deliberately trying to make sane conversations impossible?
Deliberately and extensively
Yes exactly. Around here, “the liberals” are the parties on the right wing of parliament…
Same for the US, with them being on the right side of the political spectrum
They mean enemy.
Removed by mod
US “Left” is just global “Right”-lite with more packaging. 🤌🏼
Who made you king of the left?
I did not vote for you.
No one votes for the leftist monarch.
We all take turns. It’s my turn tomorrow.
We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
Got a good chuckle, m8
If I am expected to answer for what XxCommieCoomer42069xX says on a discord channel, then I am at least left of center according to my calibrations.
Many political terms are so emotionally charged they are virtually useless except to insight controversy. In media it’s all a complete distraction to cause in-fighting and control how we think
I would have described FDR as centre left
FDR was a centrist afraid of a communist revolution. This is the only reason the US got the New Deal. Funny it didn’t last 20 years before it started getting dismantled. They are now at the SS dismantling phase.
Keep talking about reforming capitalism though.
New Deal boosted USA economy for decades tho, shit got done & people could spend.
Imagine if socialism was a thing then.
Okay so is every possible candidate for an American left wing leader just “a centrist whose afraid of communists?” Why even bother arguing with me then you’ve already made up your mind. The reality is he pushed through left wing legislation that pulled working class Americans out of the depression and put America onto the world stage as the leading power. His actions make him centre left regardless of the reasons you think he made them.
FDR did more for American workers reforming capitalism than any revolutionaries have since.
The US has no left wing leaders.
Honestly now I think you’re a master-baiter and you caught me hook line and sinker. This is a straight up “there is no war in ba sing se” bit right?
Does Bernie Sanders come close, in your opinion?
Bernie is a social democrat, which is left of the establishment, but he isnt an anticapitalist so a lot of leftists might not call him a left wing leader.
No, especially the last several years with his ‘lets fight fascism by electing my good buddies the blue fascists.’ He’s never been anything but a party sheepdog
It was fake reform BTW. It was never meant to last and you are a fool if you believed it was supposed to.
Okay buddy you’re the one against a policy that improved the lives of workers
Liberals are not left wing they are centrist.
You’re so brave for saying this
In 1934, a nationwide strike wave brought the us economy to its knees. Cities all along the trans continental railroad went on strike. Minneapolis had been basically completely taken over by a Trotskyist vanguard party, whose non-violent political tactics subverted police and big business interests at every turn. After the police shooting of two union dock workers in San Francisco on bloody Thursday, 160 unions initiated a 4 day general strike. In 1935, we got our new deal.
Workers, fed up with their conditions and inspired by socialist organizing, won a New Deal for ourselves. Giving credit to FDR for it, is ahistorical. It is exactly the sort of ruling class mythologies held and perpetuated by liberal elites. FDR was trying to rescue capitalism from the workers who had organized into a force capable of bringing it down, and seizing the means of production for the workers.
Despite the rational reforms FDR and Keynesian economics brought to the US economy, all of those reforms have been rolled back. That is because only the workers are able to win a rational economic system through struggle, it will never be given to us by some president who is beholden to the class that holds all the power and money.
There were many factors that contributed to disabling the American radical militant workers movement. Some was liberal meddling, and right wing regressive collaboration with regressive big business. But one thing that gets overlooked is how our movements were dismantled by Stalin’s Comintern, who caused splits and purges in our movements along the lines of loyalty to the Stalinist bureaucracy.
So completely blaming liberalism isn’t totally accurate either, unless you consider Stalin to be a liberal or a comprador (which honestly I think is kind of true.)
I try to be easy on liberals, I think progressive liberals are basically allies, at least when their illusions doesn’t get in the way of principled struggle. But don’t be confused by the mythology of FDR. Great man theory is a myth, only great movements of workers are capable of positive change under capitalism.
FDR was the leader at the time of the new deal. He gave into the will of the workers. This makes him left wing.
Sure. Left wing for a president, even the left wing of the ruling capitalist class. Not the left wing of the working class.
But you’re absolutely right. He was the guy who did the thing at the time that was needed to do the thing. History isn’t made by great men. It is made by workers. My point is he sided with the winners.
But he hadn’t adopted the sensibilities and interests of the working class. It just so happened that a large enough section of the ruling class agreed with him at the time, not completely without his presidential influence, but that’s the whole problem right? FDR was hardly the first member of the the ruling class who had won over to the side of workers, many great socialists, including Marx, Lenin, were themselves members of the bourgeoisie. But there is a canyon of difference between the guy who led a revolution in Russia, and the guy who stopped one in america.
As far as presidents go, he’s not a slave owning mass murder, pedophile, complete nepo-baby, etc., the man wasn’t evil as far as presidents go, but he was only evef momentarily and conditionally on the side of workers. Populism isnt necessarily leftism
You’re doing literally everything in your power to not recognise this guy as left wing to the point of absurdity. It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than: sides with workers, left wing. Sides against workers, right wing. Being left wing isn’t some special club that only you and all the people you like can join. It’s a broad political stance largely defined by the politics of the time. There are plenty of terrible leftists.
Part of the New Deal was the NLRB, which neutered unions by requiring they distance themselves from communism and socialism if they want to be recognized and protected. Essentially killing off the groups of people that fought for the labor rights won under the New Deal. Democrats, like they always do, co-opted the message of unions and neutralized their threat.
A class analysis is not absurd, it is based on actual conditions, not idealized ones. I said he was the left wing of the ruling class, but he was objectively even for his time, not in the left wing of the working class.
The interests of the capitalist class are in direct conflict with what is in the interests of the workers. Capitalists want to pay workers less to make more profit, workers want to be paid more.
Don’t mischaracterize me as saying the left is a club and I’m the gatekeeper. FDR was a gatekeeper. He let some white people through, but as I believe was stated elsewhere in these comments, he locked up a million Japanese farmers in concentration camps so that american farmers could buy up their farms for a song because they couldn’t compete with Japanese agricultural practices. He aided the forces that dismantled the american workers movement during ww2, he turned all common lands into federal property, to be given out to railroad tycoons and mineral interests. Blacks and immigrants were mostly excluded from the new deal. Social democracy for one group over all others isn’t left wing, it’s fascism. Just because you refuse to weigh facts on their actual merit, rather than idealism, treating history as a buffet where you can pick and choose the dishes you prefer, leaving the rest, doesn’t make me a left gatekeeper.
He made conciliation with the workers with his left hand but with his right he worked against us, for the benefit of his class. The left isnt a club you join by saying certain things. It isnt a set of beliefs we never act on. It is a practical program for taking power from the rich and delivering to the workers, forever.
What is absurd here is why you’re so committed to lionizing any president. I even said he wasn’t that bad, but I don’t have to be a fan, or believe he was a part of our movements. If you deny that we live in a class society, then that is absurd. There is practically no framework to determine what is real in our society and politics without a class analysis. Without it you believe that it was good and leftist that FDR gave us incomplete rights for few, instead of the workers winning full rights for all
And the party has been running right ever since
The guy that locked up Japanese US citizens? A majority of the brains behind the New Deal came from his SoL Francis Perkins
No left wing government has ever been authoritarian or had institutionalised racism, you’re so right
Easily applied to México too, at most some parties might be center and from there lean left or right (and constantly switch) but we don’t really have a leftist one.
Now one who is much more aligned to the right would be the current party in power, with all the shit they keep doing to strip us from our rights.
But the people seem happy being shitted on just so they are given a very small amount of money every 2 months so… We’re doomed.
