• eldavi@lemmy.ml
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    6 days ago

    is ukraine and gaza not evidence enough?

    or venezuela, or iraq, or iran, etc.?

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        5 days ago

        Fascism is capitalism in decay, when it needs to violently assert itself to maintain existing property rights. It isn’t a button you press.

      • cheloxin@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        Fascism and capitalism are one and the same. For some reason (probably a heavy propaganda campaign) everyone thinks fascist when they mean authoritarian or dictator. Fascism is things like Citizens United allowing corporations to flood politicians with donations, essentially marrying corporation and government.

        • FuckFascism@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          Fascism and capitalism are two separate things one is an economic system the other is a political ideology and fascism is authoritarian by nature.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                5 days ago

                Yes. All states are authoritarian, as they are all representatives of a given ruling class by which the rest are oppressed. You can’t get rid of authoritarianisn without abolishing class, so socialist states are better in the interim.

              • Michael@slrpnk.net
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                5 days ago

                Let’s flip that around: Is Sweden libertarian? No.

                Our definitions of authoritarianism clearly differ. Traditional definitions are limited in scope - political democracy does not inherently eliminate or override economically authoritarian mechanisms.

                So to answer your question: Is Sweden authoritarian?

                Sweden is a capitalist state that operates with soft authoritarian features, or at the very least, leans authoritarian - all embedded within a democratic political framework (including socialist elements).

                Authoritarianism isn’t black or white; it’s a spectrum. Capitalism does not exist in a vacuum - it requires authoritarian structures to enforce itself, either through state power protecting capital, or private violence used to assert and maintain ownership.

                Ultimately, capitalism is economic authoritarianism, even under the best-case, most-idealized form of political democracy regulating it.

                  • Michael@slrpnk.net
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                    5 days ago

                    You can’t have two definitions of authoritarianism

                    Right-libertarians or anarcho-capitalists would say the same thing about libertarianism, a word historically coined to mean mostly the opposite of their ideology - a word they later co-opted to dress their preferred ideology (capitalism) up with language that implies freedom.

                    I’ll remain steadfast in my position: capitalism is economic authoritarianism by nature. Many thinkers agree that authoritarianism is a continuum or spectrum.

                    The good thing about dictionaries is that we don’t have to follow them strictly regarding political theory, which is fluid and evolving by nature. But regardless, “favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority […] at the expense of personal freedom” seems to be a core principle of capitalist institutions. Regulation cannot meaningfully address core internal authoritarian structures and hierarchy present in capitalism.

                    The only examples of capitalism being compatible with libertarian or democratic governance would be in a direct democracy, with stronger regulation than anywhere on the planet, or in examples like worker-owned cooperatives (if that concept was enforced or widespread) - however, it would be closer to market socialism at that point.

                    Even in Sweden, contesting the violence (inherent in the enforcement of private property) of capitalist institutions would be met with violence.

      • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        fascism and capitalism are 2 sides of the same coin where history has proven that capitalism always devolves into fascism eventually.

        • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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          5 days ago

          You could say the same thing about socialism, as socialist societies seem to consistently turn fascist

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            5 days ago

            No, they don’t. They stay socialist, or dissolve like the USSR did. Fascism doesn’t mean “scary,” it’s capitalism in decay when it needs to violently assert itself to perpetuate its existence.

            • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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              5 days ago

              What did the USSR dissolve into politically? What ever it was, it’s closer to fascism now.

              The PRC wealth inequality has gotten steadily worse to the point where many (not all) democratic countries have better redistribution of resources

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                5 days ago

                The USSR dissolved into capitalism. It had a nationalist movement in the aftermath of shock therapy, and socialism is rising in popularity. The KPRF had 63,000 new members over the last few years and is the second largest political party. To begin with, fascism is capitalism in decay, it isn’t removable from that context.

                As for the PRC, it is democratic, moreso than liberal democracy. Further, inequality is decreasing in the 2020s, and morever socialism is not defined purely by the scale of disparity, but by the mode of production.

                • Geobloke@aussie.zone
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                  5 days ago

                  To the first paragraph, that is exactly what I’m saying; socialism gives way to capitalism, which according to comments elsewhere in this post is fascism.

                  I never said that the PRC is or isn’t democratic, I implied that it wasn’t socialist. Workers need to sell their labour to survive and do not have a stake in the companies they work for. Well besides what they can buy on exchanges. Labour, housing, food and health care are all commodities.

                  • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                    4 days ago

                    Socialism doesn’t give way to capitalism naturally, the USSR didn’t collapse, it was dissolved. It didn’t need to be.

                    As for the PRC, it’s absolutely socialist, even if it isn’t fully automated luxury gay space communism yet. The large firms and key industries are publicly owned, and the working class is in control. There is still commodity production and markets play a heavy role, but that’s because markets do have some level of use when it comes to developing the structures necessary to run a fully centrally planned economy, and as long as the large firms and key industries are publicly owned, the private sector doesn’t actually have the power in society. This is socialism.

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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        6 days ago

        The british and US empires were and are far more effective than their fascist successors at killing innocent people.

        And fascism is just a specific form of capitalist imperialism that burned out by the 1940s and regressed to the far more stable form of government for (neo)colonialism - bourgeois parliamentarism.

        • FuckFascism@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          The us and British imperialist nations didn’t cause an estimated 70,000,000 deaths in a mere 6 year time frame, fascism did.

          And fascism is just a specific form of capitalist imperialism that burned out by the 1940s and regressed to the far more stable form of government for (neo)colonialism - bourgeois parliamentarism.

          Mind specifying?