The problem isn’t an ism. These arguments are so tiring. Greed is a problem endemic to our species. It’s much larger than an economic system can solve. Although… communism is a power structure and capitalism is a monetary system. People conflating the two are always doing so out of ignorance or bad faith.
Because capitalism is monetary policy. The power structure is separate. In America, we have (had?) a democratic power structure. After years of the GOP attacking regulation, we have an oligarchy. Socialism is an economic system that can be compared/contrasted to capitalism. Communism implies socialism as its monetary policy but with a centralized power structure. How are the elites/leaders chosen in communism?
My friend the fact that there are only a few that own the means of production and the rest have to labor at their command is a power structure. Their ownership of the stuff required to make society function gives them power and they structured society in a way to enshrine their power.
How are the elites/leaders chosen in communism?
Democratically. People vote on their representatives, who in turn vote for the overall leadership.
You’re swimming in circles, buddy. Oligarchy is what you describe. How’s your free press doing in whatever communist country you’re holding up on a pedestal? I don’t want any of the systems currently in place, but arguing for communism is… idk, current GOP bot strategy?
Capitalism isn’t monetary policy you dumb fuck, christ, between you and the other nerd in this thread who tried to pretend to know things im not sure who is more grievously showing their ass ignorant here
I’m losing my mind at “capitalism is a monetary policy”. They’ve heard these words used by people they perceive to be smart so using them in the same sentence surely means they have a profound point.
I checked out when i quoted Kropotkin at the loser who told me to read Kropotkin and they accused me of googling it and cherry picking and “misleading” people. He literally compares wage labor under capitalism to feudal serf relations, makes the point that it’s actually worse, and then states essentially “and this is why all of our production goes in the wrong direction ignoring the needs of the community”
Like reading that and taking it to be “misleading” people into thinking Kropotkin criticized capitalism is some real fucking “don’t believe your lying eyes” shit.
Then the fucking moron goes off saying they “don’t support capitalism” but guess what, arguing that capitalism isn’t the problem is supporting capitalism! ahhhhhhhhh
How is capitalism a monetary policy? I haven’t seen any definition claim that before, can you please explain?
For a standard typical counterexample, Wikipedia’s introduction:
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit.
The power structure is necessary to enforce said private property (not to be confused with personal property!!) and extract profit. It’s not some wild coincidence, it’s the foundation which capitalism is built on.
After years of the GOP attacking regulation, we have an oligarchy.
While the GOP attacking regulation is absolutely a phenomenon, it’s not useful to frame oligarchy as a result of the GOP.
Firstly, we know that oligarchy is not a US-specific problem. Other Western countries are run by oligarchs too, look at who owns their media companies and who has captured the bulk of their politicians. Every time, it’s their own mega-millionaires and billionaires, who capitalism has pushed to operate their profitable businesses for more profit until they become an elite olígos capable of ruling. The only difference in those countries is that workers have usually struggled more successfully against them and lessened their power, but the ruling class are clearly still calling the shots. And of course, we see oligarchy arising outside of the West too, like the obvious case of the Russian Federation.
Another issue is that the Democratic Party in the US haven’t significantly countered them, they’re not innocent of this, they’re simply not as aggressive as the GOP. Capitalist ideology is a shared feature of both parties, and they’re both propped up by rich donors who can lobby and provide high-paying positions to politicians once they retire. I am not saying both parties are the same or equal, but we must understand that they’re both an active part of this situation, and neither has any desire or capability to solve oligarchy.
The power structure is necessary to enforce said private property
Other than pure forms of anarchism, don’t all systems require a power structure for enforcement?
Also, I’d argue that a system requiring enforcement is not the same thing as it being a system of enforcement. But that’s mostly semantics… I don’t mind much what you wanna call them.
(not to be confused with personal property!!)
Do you not need power to enforce personal property? What happens if someone takes and hoards the personal property of others?
I feel every change in the status of property (even if what you want is to abolish some form of property) requires some level of enforcement, and then in order to maintain that established status (or abolishment) you’d need at least some form of agreement with the community to enforce it, disagreement will end up causing disruption.
Also, I’d argue that a system requiring enforcement is not the same thing as it being a system of enforcement.
You’re correct. I don’t agree with the original claim that capitalism (itself) is a power structure, nor do I think that power and power structures are inherently bad. But like you said, it’s mostly semantics - my position is that capitalism can’t exist without a power structure of class domination, where the private-property owning class subjugate the rest of society.
As for power structures, these can be surprising flexible. To be clear, I’m not disagreeing with your claim, just exploring assumptions about power structures, like if they’re necessarily hierarchical (anarchists often specify that their objection is to hierarchy, rather than institutions themselves). Consider cases where a militia of citizens, rather than a dominant police force, is used for law enforcement, such as Cherán after they kicked out their corrupt police and cartels. Like jurors in a jury - they have lots of authority and therefore power, but they aren’t a distinct, dominant class.
Do you not need power to enforce personal property?
Absolutely, and further than that, I think it will be necessary for a society with a socialist mode of production* to use power to prevent anyone from forcefully turning public property into private property.
* Unfortunately “a socialist society” is too vague, so enjoy that mouthful.
The problem is, in fact, capitalism. This has been known for a long while.
Greed is a problem endemic to our species.
Capitalism is a much better predictor for these issues than ‘greed’, so your attempt to claim that there are no solutions to this without investigating the topic is extremely weak.
It’s much larger than an economic system can solve.
And yet, economic systems other than capitalism have been able to solve these issues.
Ah yes, when people actually point out how a defense of capitalism is not supported by facts, it’s nothing more than a ‘wrongthink’ accusation. /s
Also, spoken by a supposed ‘anarchist’, which is hilarious.
Imagine proclaiming to be an anarchist and saying shit like this like yeah you fucking nerd let’s just go back to feudalism since the problem isn’t “an ism,” yeah the entire system of property ownership underpinning all economic and political authority within our society has no effect on it whatsoever hahaha
god you’re so fucking smugly ignorant Im honestly thinking you’re just existing to bait hostility so whatever lame ass liberal shit hole instance you’re on will ban whoever dares argue with your ignorant ass as they’ll inevitably tell you that you’re an absolute fucking moron
You told me to read kropotkin as if I haven’t already and as if one of his most famous quotes weren’t literally about how capitalism forces more barbarous and essentially feudal relations on workers under the guise of free will lol yeah kropotkin definitely would agree with you (that’s a fucking joke)
We cry shame on the feudal baron who forbade the peasant to turn a clod of earth unless he surrendered to his lord a fourth of his crop. We called those barbarous times. But if the forms have changed, the relations have remained the same, and the worker is forced, under the name of free contract, to accept feudal obligations. For, turn where he will, he can find no better conditions. Everything has become private property, and he must accept, or die or hunger.
The result of this state of things is that all our production tends in a wrong direction. Enterprise takes no thought for the needs of the community. Its only aim is to increase the gains of the speculator. Hence the constant fluctuations of trade, the periodical industrial crises, each of which throws scores of thousands of workers on the streets
But don’t like worry about the fundamental structure of society that allows for this to happen, that would be worrying about "ism"s! Just wank on wank off about individual responsibility!
Pyotr Kropotkin
Oh sorry looks like you were right there at the end he agreed with you im so sorry
you are so fucking stupid and despite like what half a dozen others telling you the same you think it’s MY ego as you react to, again, probably the most famous quote from Kropotkin’s most widely read work, like a fuckin westworld android
The problem isn’t an ism. These arguments are so tiring. Greed is a problem endemic to our species. It’s much larger than an economic system can solve. Although… communism is a power structure and capitalism is a monetary system. People conflating the two are always doing so out of ignorance or bad faith.
How is capitalism, the system where one class owns and the other works, not a power structure??!
Because capitalism is monetary policy. The power structure is separate. In America, we have (had?) a democratic power structure. After years of the GOP attacking regulation, we have an oligarchy. Socialism is an economic system that can be compared/contrasted to capitalism. Communism implies socialism as its monetary policy but with a centralized power structure. How are the elites/leaders chosen in communism?
My friend the fact that there are only a few that own the means of production and the rest have to labor at their command is a power structure. Their ownership of the stuff required to make society function gives them power and they structured society in a way to enshrine their power.
Democratically. People vote on their representatives, who in turn vote for the overall leadership.
You’re swimming in circles, buddy. Oligarchy is what you describe. How’s your free press doing in whatever communist country you’re holding up on a pedestal? I don’t want any of the systems currently in place, but arguing for communism is… idk, current GOP bot strategy?
Yes I’m just an LLM being fed prompts by a gop staffer to spread communist propaganda on lemmy. Beep boop how was i found out??
Read some theory like “wage labour and capital” or something please…
Capitalism isn’t monetary policy you dumb fuck, christ, between you and the other nerd in this thread who tried to pretend to know things im not sure who is more grievously showing their ass ignorant here
I’m losing my mind at “capitalism is a monetary policy”. They’ve heard these words used by people they perceive to be smart so using them in the same sentence surely means they have a profound point.
I checked out when i quoted Kropotkin at the loser who told me to read Kropotkin and they accused me of googling it and cherry picking and “misleading” people. He literally compares wage labor under capitalism to feudal serf relations, makes the point that it’s actually worse, and then states essentially “and this is why all of our production goes in the wrong direction ignoring the needs of the community”
Like reading that and taking it to be “misleading” people into thinking Kropotkin criticized capitalism is some real fucking “don’t believe your lying eyes” shit.
Then the fucking moron goes off saying they “don’t support capitalism” but guess what, arguing that capitalism isn’t the problem is supporting capitalism! ahhhhhhhhh
How is capitalism a monetary policy? I haven’t seen any definition claim that before, can you please explain?
For a standard typical counterexample, Wikipedia’s introduction:
The power structure is necessary to enforce said private property (not to be confused with personal property!!) and extract profit. It’s not some wild coincidence, it’s the foundation which capitalism is built on.
While the GOP attacking regulation is absolutely a phenomenon, it’s not useful to frame oligarchy as a result of the GOP.
Firstly, we know that oligarchy is not a US-specific problem. Other Western countries are run by oligarchs too, look at who owns their media companies and who has captured the bulk of their politicians. Every time, it’s their own mega-millionaires and billionaires, who capitalism has pushed to operate their profitable businesses for more profit until they become an elite olígos capable of ruling. The only difference in those countries is that workers have usually struggled more successfully against them and lessened their power, but the ruling class are clearly still calling the shots. And of course, we see oligarchy arising outside of the West too, like the obvious case of the Russian Federation.
Another issue is that the Democratic Party in the US haven’t significantly countered them, they’re not innocent of this, they’re simply not as aggressive as the GOP. Capitalist ideology is a shared feature of both parties, and they’re both propped up by rich donors who can lobby and provide high-paying positions to politicians once they retire. I am not saying both parties are the same or equal, but we must understand that they’re both an active part of this situation, and neither has any desire or capability to solve oligarchy.
Other than pure forms of anarchism, don’t all systems require a power structure for enforcement?
Also, I’d argue that a system requiring enforcement is not the same thing as it being a system of enforcement. But that’s mostly semantics… I don’t mind much what you wanna call them.
Do you not need power to enforce personal property? What happens if someone takes and hoards the personal property of others?
I feel every change in the status of property (even if what you want is to abolish some form of property) requires some level of enforcement, and then in order to maintain that established status (or abolishment) you’d need at least some form of agreement with the community to enforce it, disagreement will end up causing disruption.
You’re correct. I don’t agree with the original claim that capitalism (itself) is a power structure, nor do I think that power and power structures are inherently bad. But like you said, it’s mostly semantics - my position is that capitalism can’t exist without a power structure of class domination, where the private-property owning class subjugate the rest of society.
As for power structures, these can be surprising flexible. To be clear, I’m not disagreeing with your claim, just exploring assumptions about power structures, like if they’re necessarily hierarchical (anarchists often specify that their objection is to hierarchy, rather than institutions themselves). Consider cases where a militia of citizens, rather than a dominant police force, is used for law enforcement, such as Cherán after they kicked out their corrupt police and cartels. Like jurors in a jury - they have lots of authority and therefore power, but they aren’t a distinct, dominant class.
Absolutely, and further than that, I think it will be necessary for a society with a socialist mode of production* to use power to prevent anyone from forcefully turning public property into private property.
* Unfortunately “a socialist society” is too vague, so enjoy that mouthful.
The problem is, in fact, capitalism. This has been known for a long while.
Capitalism is a much better predictor for these issues than ‘greed’, so your attempt to claim that there are no solutions to this without investigating the topic is extremely weak.
And yet, economic systems other than capitalism have been able to solve these issues.
Hahaha.
there is a cure for political illiteracy.
STOP YOUR WRONGTHINK NOW!
You are making things too complicated. We just need a different ism bro. Just one more isn bro I promise.
Things are so simple and you are ruining the vibes with your critical thinking.
You think greed is a problem and we need to address social problems before we can fix things? Sounds like some liberal nonsense.
Read Einstein bro, he knows everything because he’s basically like Rick from Rick and Morty but real and the best author of communism there is.
If you don’t just meme the meme then you are capitalism you dipshit dumfuck.
/s
Just a TLDR of the replies you are going to get here (but far less GIFs).
Ah yes, when people actually point out how a defense of capitalism is not supported by facts, it’s nothing more than a ‘wrongthink’ accusation. /s
Also, spoken by a supposed ‘anarchist’, which is hilarious.
Imagine proclaiming to be an anarchist and saying shit like this like yeah you fucking nerd let’s just go back to feudalism since the problem isn’t “an ism,” yeah the entire system of property ownership underpinning all economic and political authority within our society has no effect on it whatsoever hahaha
god you’re so fucking smugly ignorant Im honestly thinking you’re just existing to bait hostility so whatever lame ass liberal shit hole instance you’re on will ban whoever dares argue with your ignorant ass as they’ll inevitably tell you that you’re an absolute fucking moron
You told me to read kropotkin as if I haven’t already and as if one of his most famous quotes weren’t literally about how capitalism forces more barbarous and essentially feudal relations on workers under the guise of free will lol yeah kropotkin definitely would agree with you (that’s a fucking joke)
Oh sorry looks like you were right there at the end he agreed with you im so sorry
Removed by mod
you are so fucking stupid and despite like what half a dozen others telling you the same you think it’s MY ego as you react to, again, probably the most famous quote from Kropotkin’s most widely read work, like a fuckin westworld android
Removed by mod
im SO owned