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Specifically, kids ought to be using Raspberry Pis. Linux + a bunch of other stuff designed to help them learn about computers, including an actual goddamn book (“Raspberry Pi Beginners Guide”) if you buy a Raspberry Pi 500 (the built-into-a-keyboard version).
It’s that software and community and hacker ethos built into the design that makes the difference, not the performance specs of the hardware. The point is “facilitating kids learning about computing,” not merely “being a desktop computer.”
I mean, I guess you could install Raspberry Pi OS on a PC and add a GPIO breakout board (like this or this) to try to replicate the pedagogical experience of a Raspberry Pi without the “overpriced” hardware, but it’s not going to be nearly as straightforward as just using a real Pi.
Used enterprise minis are dirt cheap. The only downside is that they guzzle electricity compared to a low spec pi, but they can do much more, so don’t be afraid to give them additional tasks.
My Dell SFF uses close to the same power as my Pi, once you start doing anything with the Pi (like swap to an SSD instead of an SD card). Pi idle: 8w. Dell SFF: 12w. Neither one show up on my power bill. Both of those are less than a single LED light bulb.
Pi is great on power at idle, with nothing else going on. But it can’t convert videos at a reasonable pace, doesn’t come in a case with mounts, extra power, etc.
Don’t get me wrong, Pi is great, it’s been fun tinkering with it, a great learning tool. But it’s hard to compete with a mini or SFF on a capability-per-watt basis or physical capability (standard brackets, expansion, etc).
See my other reply expanding on why Raspberry Pi specifically.
Otherwise, while your strategy worked when I was a kid – back in the DOS/early Windows days we had to actually figure out how stuff really worked out of necessity, and often without help from the Internet because we weren’t online yet – those days are gone. The expectations of easiness are too high now, and kids would just get frustrated and bitch about wanting to go back to a “just works” tablet or phone instead. They really need some additional killer feature to be excited about, that they can’t get with a generic device running a web browser, in order to be motivated to explore.
My kids have Raspberry Pi 400s but are too young to get into reading the guide book that came with them yet, so even under (what I consider to be) those ideal circumstances they mostly ignore all the local software and just try to play the web-based games they found out about from school. 😕
In other words, even a Raspberry Pi isn’t a guarantee of fostering real computer literacy, but I still think it gives the best chance (better than a generic old PC, and way better than a consumption-oriented tablet/phone).
Don’t take this the wrong way but sound like a grumpy old millennial.
You don’t need DOS or a Raspberry pi to learn tech. What you need is the right mindset and a desire to tinker. If your kid is “bitching” they simply don’t care to learn about tech. Don’t force it down their throat as that is not going to end well.
They are interested they will learn by simply tinkering and playing around. You should avoid giving them guidance as that doesn’t teach critical thinking. Let them figure out how to do whatever. It might be improving the frame rate in Minecraft or it could be doing some sort of programming project. It could even end up being desktop customization or digital art.
I also think it is perfectly reasonable to tinker with a mobile device or tablet. You can do all sorts of things especially with some of the apps from F-droid such as Termux.
Yup, every time my niece and nephew come over I show them how awesome my desktop is! They also use my laptop but I want them to know what a proper PC can do.
Next up is showing them that the files they download don’t just magically disappear into the ether on their device.
The biggest issue is the surveillance capitalism, monopolization, and walled gardens/firmware that prevent linux mobile options from becoming a viable alternative.
Honestly I think we need more open less harmful mobile platforms. Mobile devices are perfectly fine but the ads and tracking can be a very serious problem.
You’re describing a sturdy tablet running Linux. Speaking of which, I just remembered the worst gift I have ever been given, a gen1 windows surface! The sack of shit couldn’t even run windows, the OS it was designed for, without freezing. Gonna see if I can dig it out and swap the OS!
Eh, it’s just not worth the effort to get a tablet that will still run poorly even after poring over half deleted xda threads. Were there any chance that the original surface running another OS could be useful, I’d do it. But it’d be a poor experience no matter what, based on what I’ve read.
Technically, Android is Linux (but not GNU/Linux), but as @[email protected] mentioned, i(Pad)OS is based on BSD (“Darwin”), a UNIX derivate.
Both are unixoid systems.
Kids really need to be introduced to Linux earlier. None of this iPad baby shit.
Get them a raspberry Pi or equivalent for Christmas and teach them how to run a Minecraft server on it
Necessity is the breeder of invention
I cringe at parents who build there kids gaming PCs. They should just give their kids “junk” and let them figure it out.
I mean a gaming PC is awesome but getting some old garage sales PC and spending an afternoon and showing them how to build a website would be awesome.
Specifically, kids ought to be using Raspberry Pis. Linux + a bunch of other stuff designed to help them learn about computers, including an actual goddamn book (“Raspberry Pi Beginners Guide”) if you buy a Raspberry Pi 500 (the built-into-a-keyboard version).
Raspberry Pis these days are overpriced, a cheaper mini PC/old Optiplex will do fine.
Mini PCs / old Optiplexes don’t have built-in GPIO and a huge database of kid-friendly projects to do with them.
It’s that software and community and hacker ethos built into the design that makes the difference, not the performance specs of the hardware. The point is “facilitating kids learning about computing,” not merely “being a desktop computer.”
I mean, I guess you could install Raspberry Pi OS on a PC and add a GPIO breakout board (like this or this) to try to replicate the pedagogical experience of a Raspberry Pi without the “overpriced” hardware, but it’s not going to be nearly as straightforward as just using a real Pi.
Good point.
Used enterprise minis are dirt cheap. The only downside is that they guzzle electricity compared to a low spec pi, but they can do much more, so don’t be afraid to give them additional tasks.
My Dell SFF uses close to the same power as my Pi, once you start doing anything with the Pi (like swap to an SSD instead of an SD card). Pi idle: 8w. Dell SFF: 12w. Neither one show up on my power bill. Both of those are less than a single LED light bulb.
Pi is great on power at idle, with nothing else going on. But it can’t convert videos at a reasonable pace, doesn’t come in a case with mounts, extra power, etc.
Don’t get me wrong, Pi is great, it’s been fun tinkering with it, a great learning tool. But it’s hard to compete with a mini or SFF on a capability-per-watt basis or physical capability (standard brackets, expansion, etc).
Those are heavy LED bulbs you got there at 12W or more. Typically LED bulb is only like 3 - 5 W??
Honestly they don’t burn that much power but it will depend on the CPU
I personally wouldn’t buy a Raspberry Pi. Instead, give them a old computer and say “have at it”
See my other reply expanding on why Raspberry Pi specifically.
Otherwise, while your strategy worked when I was a kid – back in the DOS/early Windows days we had to actually figure out how stuff really worked out of necessity, and often without help from the Internet because we weren’t online yet – those days are gone. The expectations of easiness are too high now, and kids would just get frustrated and bitch about wanting to go back to a “just works” tablet or phone instead. They really need some additional killer feature to be excited about, that they can’t get with a generic device running a web browser, in order to be motivated to explore.
My kids have Raspberry Pi 400s but are too young to get into reading the guide book that came with them yet, so even under (what I consider to be) those ideal circumstances they mostly ignore all the local software and just try to play the web-based games they found out about from school. 😕
In other words, even a Raspberry Pi isn’t a guarantee of fostering real computer literacy, but I still think it gives the best chance (better than a generic old PC, and way better than a consumption-oriented tablet/phone).
Don’t take this the wrong way but sound like a grumpy old millennial.
You don’t need DOS or a Raspberry pi to learn tech. What you need is the right mindset and a desire to tinker. If your kid is “bitching” they simply don’t care to learn about tech. Don’t force it down their throat as that is not going to end well.
They are interested they will learn by simply tinkering and playing around. You should avoid giving them guidance as that doesn’t teach critical thinking. Let them figure out how to do whatever. It might be improving the frame rate in Minecraft or it could be doing some sort of programming project. It could even end up being desktop customization or digital art.
I also think it is perfectly reasonable to tinker with a mobile device or tablet. You can do all sorts of things especially with some of the apps from F-droid such as Termux.
Oh hell yes get them off these crappy mobile devices
Yup, every time my niece and nephew come over I show them how awesome my desktop is! They also use my laptop but I want them to know what a proper PC can do.
Next up is showing them that the files they download don’t just magically disappear into the ether on their device.
I think mobile devices aren’t all bad.
Honestly the biggest issue is the exposure to marketing
The biggest issue is the surveillance capitalism, monopolization, and walled gardens/firmware that prevent linux mobile options from becoming a viable alternative.
Android is perfectly fine. I’ve even seen people do crazy things with iOS.
Kids will use whatever they have available if they have the right mindset. You can do some crazy things on mobile.
Honestly I think we need more open less harmful mobile platforms. Mobile devices are perfectly fine but the ads and tracking can be a very serious problem.
You’re describing a sturdy tablet running Linux. Speaking of which, I just remembered the worst gift I have ever been given, a gen1 windows surface! The sack of shit couldn’t even run windows, the OS it was designed for, without freezing. Gonna see if I can dig it out and swap the OS!
Linux sucks on mobile
I wish it didn’t but in 2025 that is the state of things
And it seems like android sucks on there as well. Damn.
It is far better than anything else.
It isn’t ideal what Google is doing. However, Lineage OS and other ROMs are keeping the ecosystem alive. We also have F-droid which is great.
Eh, it’s just not worth the effort to get a tablet that will still run poorly even after poring over half deleted xda threads. Were there any chance that the original surface running another OS could be useful, I’d do it. But it’d be a poor experience no matter what, based on what I’ve read.
Me: Junior! Did you hack a Gibson???
5yo: Maaayyybe…
I mean technically its linux
iPads are technically BSD, not Linux.
Don’t forget the Mach heritage! Darwin is the mutt of kernels.
Technically, Android is Linux (but not GNU/Linux), but as @[email protected] mentioned, i(Pad)OS is based on BSD (“Darwin”), a UNIX derivate.
Both are unixoid systems.
Termux