A debate is erupting around Islamic face coverings in Finland’s educational institutions.
Archived version: https://archive.is/20250813123725/https://yle.fi/a/74-20177195
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I think that’s a misinterpretation of the concepts of Freedom of Religion and Laicity (freedom from religion).
In the French understanding, laicity means that no representative of the State is allowed to show their religion, or treat people differently according to their religion / political orientation. Traditionally it even extended further : for example teachers would refrain from exposing their religion / political views because they recognized the influence they held on their community, and that being outspoken is unfair to those who do not share those views.
That being said, the Burqa laws are an attempt to place that burden on the users of the services of the State. It’s pretty toxic because they should be served equally, which obviously they can’t be when you write laws that target one specific group over others.
The attempt to place the blame on parents is equally toxic. You have the freedom to raise your kids the way you see fit : having a conscience is not illegal. If that leads them to do illegal stuff, well that’s when the law comes in, but not before.
It’s all fun and games until the next fascist administration uses the same Burqa laws to prohibit whatever you hold dear.
Yeah, next they’ll be saying something like “kids shouldn’t bring life-like replica guns to school” or something equally authoritarian.
The horror.
That’s a great joke. I’m sure there’s no reasonable scenario you could have picked instead of that one.
It’s not like some places in the world are prohibiting discourse about homosexuality or the criticism of religion, under the same guise of “protecting children from indoctrination”.
I am Finnish. Neither of those are in any way forbidden or avoided?
You’re pretending — in bad faith — that this is some authoritarian bullshit. It isn’t. It’s perfectly reasonable not to allow kids to cover their faces. I wasn’t allowed to in school in the 90’s either.
Again, hijabs are completely fine.
No i’m trying to see the bigger picture here. Our great grandparents were deeply religious too and because schools are accomodating to all ways of life (the burden of laicity is not on the user) they were allowed to integrate with each other and that’s how you get from >90% of religious practice in a country to <50%.
Those burqa laws have no discernable point, there is no metric that you could point to and say “see, that’s how it’s making society better”. They only have negative externalities. Sure you can punish that teenage girl and make her life more complicated. Hell, you might even get her to quit public school, that would be fucking sweet right ? What does society ever gain from that ?
It’s a solution in search of a problem, and as these things often are, it will be misused by someone whose agenda you despise.
It’s not integration when you demand that your kid can’t eat in the same room as others or that they won’t participate in PE.
Religious kids get driven to other schools, with taxis, payed for by the state, in order to be able to practice their religion and culture. There and back.
But yeah, keep pretending in bad faith as if this is some authoritarian culture denying bullshit. It’s not like I’ve said it several times now, so you surely won’t seem at all ridiculous by obtusely continuing it. ^/s
Just because a thing doesn’t have “a discernable point…” TO YOU, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have at all. Or do you think you’re literally all-knowing?
Show me the fucking data then you muppet. Kids in burqa in school is such a high-profile problem that it needs legislative action, surely there must be a mountain of data documenting the harm they do, and how prohibiting burqas in school makes that harm go away.
Or are you saying we shouldn’t legislate based on data ? Dicks out, pure vibe, and if someone disagrees you just tell them they don’t get it or maybe they think they’re literally all-knowing. Jesus fucking christ man.
Oh, please elaborate. What data specifically are you asking for? No vague strawmen, but an actual argument and a specific datapoint that is something that is measurable?
You’re arguing in bad faith to begin with, and then you go on and ignore all the arguments put to you. You talk about integration, but then instead of actually integrating, you advocate for segregation of the sexes and religions by ignoring the points that you’d have to actually build separate facilities for burka wearing girls to eat and they wouldn’t participate in PE or at least shower afterwards, which would be unhygienic.
It’s downright obvious you’re trolling as hard you can to get me to say “we won’t accept blabla islam blabla”, but we do. Integration is always a compromise, and the compromise some cultures (which happen to also be majority muslim) have had to make is for instance stopping the genital mutilation of girls. That’s just illegal here, no matter what culture you come from. Sorry, but that’s unacceptable, no matter what you believe in. Burkas and Niqabs aren’t, but when it comes to education in Finnish schools, afraid there’s no room for them, for very practical reasons.
Ramadan is accommodated, because not eating doesn’t require a separate space be built. But some veiled space where girls can be protected from the lusty eyes of… checks notes… elementary school aged boys? Nah.
Truly an insufferable prick