I don’t think it’s a an inherent trait or anything. Just that men can be problematic in two ways either they do or say <bad thing> or they don’t stand up to refute/challenge when other men do or say <bad thing>. If they aren’t either of those then that’s good then.
I’m not interested in talking about other groups at the moment as this is only about men, please stay on the subject, if you intended to compare or contrast that isn’t helpful and is just a distraction.
Ultimately what I want is for men to work on themselves and each other without either blaming other groups of people, or requiring other groups to sort out their problems for them, and for them to stop harming others. Yes I don’t think that this should stop other groups or individuals from those groups caring or helping if they want to but it shouldn’t be an expectation.
If they aren’t either of those then that’s good then.
So you understand that it doesn’t apply to all men. You just don’t seem to understand why those men would be unhappy to be lumped in with the rest, especially when we’re talking about the perks of men dying.
I’m not interested in talking about other groups at the moment as this is only about men, please stay on the subject, if you intended to compare or contrast that isn’t helpful and is just a distraction.
I don’t think it’s true that it’s unhelpful or a distraction. Its purpose is to highlight that people expecting everyone to take a nuanced understanding and stance on “dead men can’t <X>” claims don’t carry that same expectation for other groups, especially groups that they themselves are in. They don’t actually live by or uphold the standard they’re setting, they just want to benefit from it. Probably at least in part because they’re spouting sexist crap and don’t have a better defense for it than that. It’s a hypocritical double standard.
Ultimately what I want is for men to work on themselves and each other without either blaming other groups of people, or requiring other groups to sort out their problems for them, and for them to stop harming others. Yes I don’t think that this should stop other groups or individuals from those groups caring or helping if they want to but it shouldn’t be an expectation.
Here’s the double standard again. Any man is responsible for the behavior of the group as a whole, but I’ve never met anyone who thinks like this and applies it to all groups. Men are expected to police men, but women aren’t really expected to police women, nor are minorities expected to police the rest of their own group. Or, if they do apply it to a broader range of groups, it once again most certainly doesn’t include groups they themselves are in.
And don’t get me wrong, we should all stand up and say something about wrongdoing more often. But I can’t agree with this idea that all men are responsible for the behavior of all other men and that men need to collectively and internally address it. We aren’t a collective. We don’t all associate with the shitheads, and we don’t all let our friends slide when they fuck up.
Why is it reasonable to lump me in with the people who upset you when I’ve never even met the assholes, or if I did, don’t associate with them? Am I expected to spend my life surrounded by people I don’t like so I can hopefully maybe change their minds? How much of my time am I expected to dedicate to this despite it being wildly outside of my skill set when there are other ways I could more effectively help improve the world? Why is this my responsibility when I’m already tending to my corner of the world properly?
I don’t think it’s a an inherent trait or anything. Just that men can be problematic in two ways either they do or say <bad thing> or they don’t stand up to refute/challenge when other men do or say <bad thing>. If they aren’t either of those then that’s good then.
I’m not interested in talking about other groups at the moment as this is only about men, please stay on the subject, if you intended to compare or contrast that isn’t helpful and is just a distraction.
Ultimately what I want is for men to work on themselves and each other without either blaming other groups of people, or requiring other groups to sort out their problems for them, and for them to stop harming others. Yes I don’t think that this should stop other groups or individuals from those groups caring or helping if they want to but it shouldn’t be an expectation.
Hope this clears that up.
So you understand that it doesn’t apply to all men. You just don’t seem to understand why those men would be unhappy to be lumped in with the rest, especially when we’re talking about the perks of men dying.
I don’t think it’s true that it’s unhelpful or a distraction. Its purpose is to highlight that people expecting everyone to take a nuanced understanding and stance on “dead men can’t <X>” claims don’t carry that same expectation for other groups, especially groups that they themselves are in. They don’t actually live by or uphold the standard they’re setting, they just want to benefit from it. Probably at least in part because they’re spouting sexist crap and don’t have a better defense for it than that. It’s a hypocritical double standard.
Here’s the double standard again. Any man is responsible for the behavior of the group as a whole, but I’ve never met anyone who thinks like this and applies it to all groups. Men are expected to police men, but women aren’t really expected to police women, nor are minorities expected to police the rest of their own group. Or, if they do apply it to a broader range of groups, it once again most certainly doesn’t include groups they themselves are in.
And don’t get me wrong, we should all stand up and say something about wrongdoing more often. But I can’t agree with this idea that all men are responsible for the behavior of all other men and that men need to collectively and internally address it. We aren’t a collective. We don’t all associate with the shitheads, and we don’t all let our friends slide when they fuck up.
Why is it reasonable to lump me in with the people who upset you when I’ve never even met the assholes, or if I did, don’t associate with them? Am I expected to spend my life surrounded by people I don’t like so I can hopefully maybe change their minds? How much of my time am I expected to dedicate to this despite it being wildly outside of my skill set when there are other ways I could more effectively help improve the world? Why is this my responsibility when I’m already tending to my corner of the world properly?