No. Not having the trial and doing nothing, or having the trial and then not doing the punishment, is tolerance. Having the trial and then punishing is justice. Not having the trial and doing the punishment anyway is terror. I’m not aware of a time when that was the solution that didn’t go horribly sideways almost instantly.
This is well said, and satisfies as an answer. As well as your break down of trial and punishment phases and how they fit into the social contact model. This gives a great deal of missing insights and helps me round out my world view where my thought process was sorely lacking. Your view has helped shape my own, I wish I got to say that more from my online interactions.
Sometimes there’s no way around that, of course. That’s what we call a war.
This is where my real concern lies, the suspension AND partial application of habeas corpus is essentially – in my view – a casus belli due the public. Habeas corpus must be universal in its application by the state, or the federal-state must be seen as a direct threat to the civilian public. They’ve tested the waters on this already in prior protests. At what point do we admit that it’s no longer being honored by the federal-state and realize that we’ve been stripped of our right to accuse those who have wronged us – also part of due process – and take matters into our own hands to restore our rights?
At what point is tolerance indistinguishable from cowardice in the name of tolerance?
Perhaps I’m being rhetorical. The issue I have is that I don’t see a meaningful way forward to even exercise due process, and even if we did have one, how that prevents catastrophic social consequences happening meanwhile. Due process is a reactive measure, after all.
I don’t believe the state, whether federal or not, will prosecute agents of the state that violate my rights – human or constitutional. Therefore, as important as discussions about habeas corpus/due process are, for me it’s putting the cart before the horse. Nothing you suggest prevents state-agents from murdering people – due process or not. (After review, it wasn’t a failure to address this point – it was just outside the scope of the point you were making).
Apologies for the long winded response, apparently I had more to say on this than I realized. TL;DR we agree, apparently – as I’ve just come to realize – the only difference is that I believe that we’re already at war, just not entirely de facto. Might does not make right, but it can correct a wrong and the people can be mighty.
Seems a little more clear spelled out that way?
Much more so, I thank you for taking the time and effort to respond as well as you did.
This is where my real concern lies, the suspension AND partial application of habeas corpus is essentially – in my view – a casus belli due the public. Habeas corpus must be universal in its application by the state, or the federal-state must be seen as a direct threat to the civilian public. They’ve tested the waters on this already in prior protests. At what point do we admit that it’s no longer being honored by the federal-state and realize that we’ve been stripped of our right to accuse those who have wronged us – also part of due process – and take matters into our own hands to restore our rights?
Yeah. The entire concept of American governance was that the people in the country fight to maintain control of their own government, and then take responsibility for it running properly. We’ve wandered pretty far from that at this point. To a large degree because the tools that we might use to coordinate and organize the fight have been co-opted by people who want to run the government on their own behalf.
Apologies for the long winded response, apparently I had more to say on this than I realized. TL;DR we agree, apparently – as I’ve just come to realize – the only difference is that I believe that we’re already at war, just not entirely de facto.
Agreed. Yeah, I was talking just about what the desired end state should be once democracy is reestablished, not saying we shouldn’t be vigorously defending ourselves right now.
Thank you, and upvoted!
This is well said, and satisfies as an answer. As well as your break down of trial and punishment phases and how they fit into the social contact model. This gives a great deal of missing insights and helps me round out my world view where my thought process was sorely lacking. Your view has helped shape my own, I wish I got to say that more from my online interactions.
This is where my real concern lies, the suspension AND partial application of habeas corpus is essentially – in my view – a casus belli due the public. Habeas corpus must be universal in its application by the state, or the federal-state must be seen as a direct threat to the civilian public. They’ve tested the waters on this already in prior protests. At what point do we admit that it’s no longer being honored by the federal-state and realize that we’ve been stripped of our right to accuse those who have wronged us – also part of due process – and take matters into our own hands to restore our rights?
At what point is tolerance indistinguishable from cowardice in the name of tolerance?
Perhaps I’m being rhetorical. The issue I have is that I don’t see a meaningful way forward to even exercise due process, and even if we did have one, how that prevents catastrophic social consequences happening meanwhile. Due process is a reactive measure, after all.
I don’t believe the state, whether federal or not, will prosecute agents of the state that violate my rights – human or constitutional. Therefore, as important as discussions about habeas corpus/due process are, for me it’s putting the cart before the horse. Nothing you suggest prevents state-agents from murdering people – due process or not. (After review, it wasn’t a failure to address this point – it was just outside the scope of the point you were making).
Apologies for the long winded response, apparently I had more to say on this than I realized. TL;DR we agree, apparently – as I’ve just come to realize – the only difference is that I believe that we’re already at war, just not entirely de facto. Might does not make right, but it can correct a wrong and the people can be mighty.
Much more so, I thank you for taking the time and effort to respond as well as you did.
Yeah. The entire concept of American governance was that the people in the country fight to maintain control of their own government, and then take responsibility for it running properly. We’ve wandered pretty far from that at this point. To a large degree because the tools that we might use to coordinate and organize the fight have been co-opted by people who want to run the government on their own behalf.
Agreed. Yeah, I was talking just about what the desired end state should be once democracy is reestablished, not saying we shouldn’t be vigorously defending ourselves right now.