China deployed its embassies to spread doubts about the performance of French-made Rafale jets after they saw combat in India and Pakistan’s clashes in May, French military and intelligence officials have concluded, implicating Beijing in an effort to hammer the reputation and sales of France’s flagship fighter.
Findings from a French intelligence service seen by The Associated Press say defense attaches in China’s foreign embassies led a charge to undermine Rafale sales, seeking to persuade countries that have already ordered the French-made fighter — notably Indonesia — not to buy more and to encourage other potential buyers to choose Chinese-made planes.
The findings were shared with AP by a French military official on condition that the official and the intelligence service not be named.
So, was it true that Indian Rafale’s were downed by the Chinese-made Pakistani fighters or…? Can anyone elucidate us a bit on the topic?
Yes 4 jets were confirmed shot down with 1 proven to be a Rafale, 1 Mirage, 1 Su-30MKI, and a MiG-29. US confirmed 2 French origin jets were shot down but didn’t specify which ones, Pakistan still claims they shot down 3 Rafales total on top of the other 3.
There’s several good sources of the entire air battle and the key aspect being the BVR kill chain, meaning the Rafale isn’t necessarily a bad jet.
But Dassault suffered an immediate loss in stock value and potential sale clout right after the battle ended and both sides had their debrief.
As much as I’m going to make fun of the other reply in this thread for trying to cover up getting slammed by a PL-15 as “pilot error”, this really has more to do with the modern methodology of air combat which the IAF was not prepared for due to their lack of a dynamic integrated electronic platform.
Their Rafale purchase was already a knee jerk response to their loss in 2019 when a MiG-21 pilot was shot down by the PAF and captured.
France sold them a guarantee of quality, but they didn’t buy a full package with AWACS, EW, etc because it was already extremely expensive with each jet and armaments coming in at 300 million USD.
Now that Russia is no longer selling big weapons due to their war in Ukraine, India is really stuck in a tight spot because foreign tech will always be very expensive, and their homegrown projects under HAL have never really taken off or been battle proven (ex: their Tejas jet).
Thank you for the comprehensive reply!
Both sides are saving face, India lost some fighters more than one for sure. But no clarity, pakistan claims they downed five, BBC independently verified one, some US officials said two planes were shot down. However it’s unclear if they were downed by Chinese made fighters or not, maybe they were. India confirmed that “losses are part of defense action”. Couple other experts pointed it looked like crash due to air-to-air missiles (but experts are all anoynums and from western countries). The problem is there was so much disinformation in Indian media, Pakistani media and Chinese media around that time. It’s next to impossible to say how the Rafale was downed, but at least downed Rafale is confirmed.
Yes, due to pilot error. Only a single jet was provably downed and India said they were perfectly happy with the performance of the jet.
China is in conflit with India, they want the worst outcome possible for them, which would be to make the Rafale, which wins air competitions left and right, irrelevant.
The “pilot error” in question
Also not a Rafale, but you get the idea of IAF’s reputation:
This missile, just like all missiles, is just a glorified engine and a guidance system. Therefore it is a lot more maneuverable than a jet, be it Chinese or French. It even has a term called the “no-escape zone” beyond which a plane can’t escape the missile.
The pilot error therefore comes down to bad tactics/strategy and allowed themselves to get within that zone.
Whatever you think of the indian military losing planes when they have the attacker’s disadvantage and strict orders not to escalate the conflict by preemptively destroying the anti-air defenses and such, the error happened likely before the missile was even launched. And even then, the rafale is one of the most manoeuverable pmanes in the world, due to its innate aerodynamic instability that’s tamed by a complex fly-by-wire system. If one plane had a chance to escape the missile, it was the rafale.
no shit sherlock
Mwuahahaha I got so many of these
Edit:
They say the campaign included viral posts on social media, manipulated imagery showing supposed Rafale debris, AI-generated content and video-game depictions to simulate supposed combat. More than 1,000 social media accounts newly created as the India-Pakistan clashes erupted also spread a narrative of Chinese technological superiority, according to French researchers who specialize in online disinformation.
French military officials say they haven’t been able to link the online Rafale-bashing directly to the Chinese government.
This is just internet sledging from actual users lmao
