- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
Cross-posted from “TRUE communism!” by @[email protected] in [email protected]
Cross-posted from “TRUE communism!” by @[email protected] in [email protected]
Not without being conquered by fascists or red fash. I.e they’re internally consistent.
Imagine equating a state and related movements that massively improved working-class people’s lives, including in terms of life expectancy, literacy rates, including by providing guaranteed housing, universal healthcare, fundamental women’s rights that are taken for granted today, and which not only fought off settler-colonialism in the form of the Lebensraum and the Holocaust, but also helped many other countries liberate themselves from European powers, with things like Germany under NSDAP, the US, Pissrael, and NATO in general.
Okay, so stop being a literal child and draw that thought out to its logical conclusions. I did that fifteen fucking years ago and realized, oh, hey, China isn’t Literally Evil for Doing Authoritarianism. They exist in a world with the fucking CIA, and all the feel good anarcho idealism in the world isn’t going to protect them from their literal fucking terrorism.
If you actually use your fucking brain you’d understand that it matters what “authority” is used “for.” Let me spoil it for you- using it to defend a revolution from internal and external reaction and imperialism IS GOOD, UNLESS YOU’RE A FUCKING REACTIONARY.
You don’t need hierarchies to defend against imperialism
You sure you don’t need those hierarchies buddy? You suuuuuuuure?
Yep, I don’t want to help bring about a system which will only revert to capitalism on its own.
So you’re happy with a system that will revert to capitalism, your quibble is just over whether it’s taken apart by internal or external forces. Yeah, real coherent ideology you got there.
I’m not happy with a system that will revert to capitalism at all. I just think the material conditions are not always the same where anarchists won’t come ahead against the counter-revolution, and when they do, they won’t collapse through their own internal contradictions like ML regimes.
So AES states prove that socialist states always collapse and becomes capitalism, and the collapse of every anarchist state ever to outside of forces doesn’t prove that anarchist states are incapable of defending themselves? I have that right? And that makes sense to you?
Yes.
this is why people like me just laugh and call you a fucking child, because like, what are you even on? What does your revolutionary society look like? How is it organized?
You just out yourself as an ignorant, illiterate fuck who doesn’t realize that political anarchism is about the abolition of unjust and arbitrary hierarchies, not some idealist bullshit ass “we need a non hierarchical society” and a belief that you just get there by fucking magic. You are going to need to have a political organization of some kind, and guess what? The establishment of that is inherently fucking hierarchical!
What makes it good is not being a hierarchy based on fucking nobility or property ownership or oppressive class relations, dipshit. You are better off jerking yourself to death in your goon cave than chasing after some platonic ideal of A Lack of Hierarchy when here in the fucking real world the bourgoisie, fascists and cops are closing the noose around your neck and mine.
I’d tell you to grow the fuck up but I know you’re just going to keep crying about authority and hierarchy while every single fucking lying weaselly ass statement from your mouth assists the imperialists and the bourgeoisie, whether you know it or not
There’s entire books about that. If you want to criticize something so passionately, you should understand what you’re criticizing and read up on theory. Or ask your local (instance’s) anarchists.
no shit, and none of them say “and we abolish all hierarchy and live in peace and good vibes” like you and dipshit wanna pretend
If you want a serious answer, I’d recommend looking up how the anarchist rural communes in Aragon functioned. They seemed to work really well, both in terms of equality and productivity, they just obviously couldn’t survive the war.
If I get time I’ll edit in some sources.
im pretty sure they were organized by the trade unions which, gasp, had leaders 😔
Anarchism isn’t ‘anti-leader’.
yes they do
well i’m glad it doesn’t ignore the challenges of reality every system has to face. my impression from what i read of communist literature included stressing pragmatism over idealism (hopefully a good translation of 唯心主义), is that not the case? damned if it isn’t
Tankies :“immature”, “anakiddie”, “liberal”, “reactionary”, “ignorant”, “waaaa”
Also tankies : “what about that left unity doe?”
A tale repeated since the nonsense that is “on authority”
But thanks for reinforcing to the audience why one just not align with (nevermind trust) MLs.
They’re not calling anarchists idiots. They’re explicitly referring to you who started being combative right out of the gate with this dumb fucking meme
Right, it’s not like MLs have been calling anarchists who don’t toe the line “infantile” (when not outright labeling them as liberals so as to have an excuse to purge them) since the times of Lenin. Totally isolated incident
Here’s an advice, If you don’t like this sort of of meme, maybe block anarchism comms outside of your instance instead of coming to in our space to antagonize and troll?
Lmao, why would I block anarchist comms when I consider them to be comrades? You’re the one being antagonistic, not anarchists as a whole.
If you don’t like hexbears calling you out on your shit then maybe you should be the one to disengage and defederate? Anarchists are always welcome on hexbear, but it’s clear that “tankies” aren’t welcome in your comms.
You mean like what you’re doing to us in this meme? That’s a nice glass house you’ve got, try not to throw any rocks.
The meme is not calling you “liberals” lol. Work on it your reading comprehension.
I’m not being antagonistic. I’m just shit posting for anarchists in an anarchist comm, y’all don’t have to be here. Why would I defed you when y’all come in such threads and beautifully make my point for me?
Likewise anarchists that don’t toe the campist line are absolutely not welcome in hexbear, y’all just get around that by calling them “liberals” before dogpiling and eventually banning them.
the only good revolution is the one that fails
The USSR was also destroyed by encirclement and (nearly 100 years) of pressure from reactionaries.
But again, you and and the people on the comm you named after yourself are the ones hypocritically positing that any socialist project that fails is evidence that that project’s ideology inevitably leads to capitalist takeover. None of the “tankies” on Hexbear are saying that because it’s asinine, but if you actually believe it, to be ideologically consistent, would require condemning anarchism also.
Deeply unserious
Yeah, right… it had absolutely nothing to do with the batshit-insane economic and social blundering of the CPSU.
Nothing at all.
It was literally the fastest growing economic system of all time. It went from wooden hand-drawn plows to spaceflight in a single generation, while defeating the most devastating invasion in human history. The nation once called “the India of Europe” became the first interplanetary civilization.
Then, after the entire collective might of the capitalist world had slaughtered dozens of millions of the bravest and most committed communists, it started falling apart because liberals took over. It was dissolved illegally, against the wishes of 70% of the population that voted in a referendum to keep the Union, in a bloody coup that killed over 2000 people fighting against its destruction. By the end of the 90s there had been 7-10 million excess deaths above the death rate of the 80s in Russia alone, making it one of the worst non-war human-caused humanitarian disasters of all time.
In short, the people of the USSR were revolutionaries and heroes, whereas you are a grotty little chauvinist from the imperial core who doesn’t want to improve the world, because if you did you would want to win, and if you wanted to win you would read history, and if you read history you would come to the same conclusion.
Yeah… I think Marxism-Leninism is the only ideology that dictates that you do colonialism against yourself.
Lol! Been overdoing the sci-fi a bit, tankie?
Just to clarify… you are not talking about the ones murdered on Stalin’s orders, right?
Stop fooling yourself, tankie - the fact that a large majority of the Soviet population saw no need to dismember the Union doesn’t mean they also wanted your faux-socialism.
Oh, really? So where did those liberals come from, then?
You mean… unlike you?
Motherfucker okay this is where I get heated.
You have never read any anti-colonial theory in your life and it shows. Fucking cracker “anarchists” I swear to god.
Yes the USSR was the first country to land a probe on a moon that wasn’t ours.
Source?
Counterrevolutionaries will be something we have to contend with until we abolish capitalism globally.
You want to lose?
Oh, look at the tankie puffing themselves up in an attempt to be intimidating.
Lol… puff to your heart’s content.
Oh look… a tankie that wants to play political tourist here in the extraction zone.
Yawn.
So that qualifies as an “interplanetary civilisation,” correct?
Tell me tankie… what was the fate of Konstantin Chelpan - you know, the lead designer of the team of engineers that created the V2 diesel engine? I assume a tankie like you would know what a T-34 is, right?
I hate having to repeat myself, but you tankies are quite hard of hearing, soooo… the fact that a large majority of the Soviet population saw no need to dismember the Union doesn’t mean they also wanted your faux-socialism.
True. You are still here, after all.
I’m not a tankie asshole.
I am fully convinced that a small number of users on this instance are here with the intention of making anarchists look bad, the intention to really drive in the nail (one crafted by the enemies of all of the left) that anarchism is the ideology of spoiled, tantrum-throwing children. Because that’s how @[email protected] and a few others like them are behaving. Actual anarchism is not this, of course, but that’s why I am so convinced that either these puerile users don’t know what real anarchism is, or they do but are only pretending to be anarchists online to “troll” real leftists, be their targets Marxist-Leninist or real anarchists or any other genuine leftist tendency.
Anyone reading these exchanges (even lurking liberals) who have any experience interacting with their fellow humans, can immediately spot who in these threads are speaking in good faith, are interested in learning and understanding the world, interested in presenting valid evidence and reasoning for their beliefs (people like @[email protected] in this particular subthread), versus which other participants in this thread are acting completely, openly, and smugly in bad faith with no interest in either the truth or in learning, let alone any interest in having a real discussion, because they make it clear the only interest they have is “owning” opponents, or since they can’t manage that, just being inflammatory and saying things we all know are absurd but are designed to cause upset even when it lays bare their own pathetic ignorance. Trolling, in other words. It is so blatantly obvious who is just here spewing whatever they can with the intent to make people angry. It doesn’t have to be reflective of reality, they don’t have to even make sense, they just say things in a transparent attempt to shit-fling.
I say let them keep at it, they will wear themselves out eventually, as conniption-having toddlers always do. But also because it is so obvious what they’re doing, anyone watching from the sidelines, especially anyone “without a horse in this race” can see that the “tankies” and actual anarchists (like @[email protected]), at least in this thread, are the ones who know what they’re talking about and have genuine convictions and a dedication to justice. I want to reiterate that (real) anarchists have these positive qualities too, but a select few of the cringe users in this thread like masquenox who claim to be anarchists should not be taken as being even remotely representative of what people who belong to that tendency are like or what they believe. The anarchists I know irl and consider friends and comrades wouldn’t be caught dead associating with these tantrum-throwing, “tankie-hating” children.
You’re a reactionary cosplaying as a leftist - just like your tankie friends over here.
It’s colonialism when you teach peasants how to read and give them telegraph poles and combine harvesters. You are a fucking stupid historically illiterate imperial core roleplayer piece of shit, the USSR was the first anticolonial nation in history, they fought on the morally correct side of nearly every anticolonial struggle in the world in the 20th century. As just even a single example, in 1961, the USSR used its veto powers in the UN to stop a forced ceasefire, allowing the Indians to invade and liberate the Portugese-held island of Goa, literally kicking out colonialists.
But it’s interesting that you seem to agree with the representative of Portugal that the USSR has ‘shamed the whole of mankind’.
The USSR created the first artifical satellite, put the first man in space, put the first woman in space, conducted the first spacewalk, landed the first spacecraft on the moon, landed the first spacecraft on another planet (Venus), built the first space station and landed the first spacecraft on Mars. The first black man in space was an Afro-Cuban man who went on in a Soviet rocket. Eight of the first ten nationalities in space were from the ‘eastern block’. ‘Astronaut Barbie’ was released by Mattel two years after the first Soviet woman went to space, and twenty years BEFORE the first US woman would.
Anyway I’m tired of reading your overwrought self-righteous self-important reddit liberal style of argumentation, all form and no substance, so just feel free to go read a book (assuming that’s something you’re actually capable of) and argue with that instead.
Are we talking about the peasants who democratically rejected your bolshevik clergy over and over again through the soviets back in 1919? Those peasants?
Oh, look… a reactionary cosplaying as a leftst is calling others “imperialist.”
Yawn, tankie.
LOOOL! Tell it to the Finns, the Ukrainians and the Poles, tankie. I can almost hear their laughter all the way from over here.
And the US used it’s military power to end Imperial Japan - I guess that makes the US “anit-colonial” now, too?
And? Are you perhaps suffering from some kind of insecurity, tankie?
Which one, tankie? This one?
The millions and millions of peasants and workers who formed the absolutely committed base of the communist party yes. Here’s a question for you: HOW did the Bolsheviks gain power? When the Tsarist regime was crushing and oppressing the workers, and after the February revolution when the bourgeoise transitional state was gearing up for another round of WW1, HOW did the Bolsheviks come out on top? Was there a magic crown they grabbed to take control of the revolution? Did they use communist mind control? So “the peasants … democratically rejected [the] bolshevik clergy [sic] over and over again through the soviets back in 1919” [1] but the bolsheviks just overruled them… how?
This is the problem with a liberal-idealist understanding of the world which is not based in material reality, you don’t think about things like that. The bolsheviks won BECAUSE they had the full, furious support of dozens of millions of workers and peasants, without which they could not possibly have defeated the White army or constructed a socialist state. The Soviet people worked tirelessly to build a society of technological wonders as well as the military power needed to defend it against a world of capitalist enemies. Enemies like the Polish fascists who invaded the USSR in 1921, annexing a massive region that was (and is today) part of Belarus and Ukraine. Do you think retaking these areas (and saving their populations from the advancing Nazis) was wrong of the USSR? Do you think these territories should be part of Poland today? Should Belarus and western Ukraine be re-annexed to the Polish state, which held them for less than twenty years?
Six million Ukrainians fought in the Red Army in WW2, making up 23% of the Soviet Union’s entire armed forces. The insignificant handful of traitorous fascist worms who sabotaged their own nation, collaborated with the Nazis and gleefully massacred Jews (and Poles!!) do not represent the Ukrainian people. This is what the ‘Ukrainian Nationalists’ have to say about their time ‘resisiting the communists’:
And here a photo of a Jewish woman being chased by men and youth armed with clubs during the Lviv pogroms, 1941, Ukraine (CW: violence)
Which is the kind of thing the Red Army put a stop to.
Here I agree with Rosa Luxemburg: Granting Finland independence and not supporting the morally correct side in its civil war was objectively a mistake. The Red Army should have marched on Helsinki in 1918 but Lenin and the bolsheviks were too committed to the policy of the right of nations to self-determination, so they let it be taken over by nationalists who would go on to aid the Nazis in the siege of Leningrad that killed 1.5 million people. Don’t look up the insignia used by the Finnish air force until 2020.
Literally yes, that was an anti-colonial act, except that they immediately replaced Japanese imperialism in the eastern Pacific with US imperialism. Also what really drove the Japanese to surrender was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. The Japanese had hoped the USSR would act as a neutral arbiter for a conditional truce between them and the US, but when it was clear the USSR was going to roll up the fascists wherever they found them, the Japanese unconditionally surrendered to the US specifically to avoid the possibility of a communist takeover. The US then immediately put Japanese military leaders (i.e. war criminals) to work against the communists in the Phillipines, Korea, Vietnam and everywhere else in South-East Asia. Actions you presumably support, as those war criminals were deployed first and foremost against the worst of all liberal boogeymen, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Did you know the US invasion killed around 20% of the population of the Korean peninsula?
Let me know when an anarchist gets to space.
Books:
Citation needed ↩︎
Yes, you creepshow excuse for a leftist, there was - it’s called a soviet. You know… the democratic coucnils through which the vast majority of Russians democratically rejected your Bolshie heroes?
The Bolshevik counter-revolution is now mere historical record, tankie. None of your shitty walls-of-text can change that.
Oh, look… a reactionary cosplaying as a leftist is calling me a liberal again.
Lemme guess… Lenin told you that in one of your fantasies while you were jerking off, right?
What socialist state, tankie?
You mean when they went to war and reconquered the territory the Bolsheviks invaded in 1940?
Until 2020? Lol!
I guess that also means you don’t actually know the history of that symbol, do you?
Holy crap, tankie… you are full of it.
No, tankie… waging wars against imperialist rivals doesn’t make you “anti-imperialist.”
Again with the tankie insecurity. What’s the matter, tankie? Still trying to “catch up” with western imperialism, are we?
Yeah… that excuses all the slave labour, eh tankie?
Disengage
Internally consistent, externally non-existent
If your ideology can’t stand up against outside forces then surely it’s just not a good ideology?
I was an anarchist myself for a long time, and I’m still really sympathetic to anarchist ideas and movements, but for me it’s just hard to see it as anything but utopianism when, despite all the good intention and internal consistency, it just can’t ever seem to survive contact with the real world.
So…
Well at least communism has consistently survived contact with the real world.
Oh, wait.
Well no, see, those dont count, because reasons.
Maybe if you weren’t a complete tool if the capitalist, you would understand this, but i cannot explain. Because it’s secret to people who paid attention through all of ‘capital’. Which you didn’t or obviously you’d agree with me and there would be no need to explain.